[somewhatdamaged]

Camaro only for me....would not own and do not like Mustang period. Love the styling of the Challenger, but too heavy and love the modding options of the LS engines.

[crysalis_01]

I'm a Mustang fan...obviously. But I do respect Camaro. Competition makes everyone better. However as far as GM pony cars go, I've always preferred Firebirds. Pontiac was always my favorite GM subbrand. Seeing it die really was hard.

[joemosfet]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Find it hard to believe anyone can like all brands equal. Kinda strange.

Like someone agreeing with everything so they can make friends... Lame,

At the same time, I find it hard to believe that somebody can hate the competitor's offering.

For instance, I certainly like the Camaro more than I do a Mustang. But I'd be dishonest to say I hate it, or dislike it. No, quite the opposite, the Mustang is one hellova machine.

If I could afford it, I'd have a Mustang right next to the Camaro in my garage. And a Challenger, and a M4, and a GTR, and a 911, etc.

Save the hate for a Prius or something.

But, to your point, I do hold a special place in my heart for Camaros - my dad had two when I was growing up - and new gen HEMIs - my dad and I have supercharged two of them, one still sits in his garage, never to be sold.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by joemosfet

At the same time, I find it hard to believe that somebody can hate the competitor's offering.

For instance, I certainly like the Camaro more than I do a Mustang. But I'd be dishonest to say I hate it, or dislike it. No, quite the opposite, the Mustang is one hellova machine.

If I could afford it, I'd have a Mustang right next to the Camaro in my garage. And a Challenger, and a M4, and a GTR, and a 911, etc.

Save the hate for a Prius or something.

But, to your point, I do hold a special place in my heart for Camaros - my dad had two when I was growing up - and new gen HEMIs - my dad and I have supercharged two of them, one still sits in his garage, never to be sold.

Yup...they are just cars. And like you im a car nut. If I could afford it I would have all kinds of cars. But honestly...it wouldnt be a mustang GT. Id give the next gt500 a run and the 350 as well.

Although my like for the mustang is probably at an all time low right now...how a lot of the owners/fans are acting lately is just something for the ages.

I know its not the mustangs fault...but the thought of being associated with them makes me nauseous at this point in time.

[Mr Monte]

I like the Camaro SS, Mustang GT & Challenger SRT8 enough that I bought all 3 new within an 18 month time frame. I have owned every gen of Camaro + a few Firebirds and have own 1/2 doz Mustangs.

[RatBoy]

Originally Posted by Mr Monte

I like the Camaro SS, Mustang GT & Challenger SRT8 enough that I bought all 3 new within an 18 month time frame. I have owned every gen of Camaro + a few Firebirds and have own 1/2 doz Mustangs.

I've come close... I've had a 2010 GT500, a 2011 GT500, 2012 SRT8 Challenger, and a 2013 ZL1.

The Challenger was beautiful, but offered less in visceral thrills than the other three. The 2011 GT500 got a bigger blower from Ford Racing (their Super Pak) shortly after I bought it; if not for my gimpy left leg, I'd probably still have it today.

Turned the ZL1 back in to the dealership when I was laid off at the start of 2014. Hope to get a 2SS Camaro this coming spring if the stars align.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by joemosfet

At the same time, I find it hard to believe that somebody can hate the competitor's offering.

For instance, I certainly like the Camaro more than I do a Mustang. But I'd be dishonest to say I hate it, or dislike it. No, quite the opposite, the Mustang is one hellova machine.

If I could afford it, I'd have a Mustang right next to the Camaro in my garage. And a Challenger, and a M4, and a GTR, and a 911, etc.

Save the hate for a Prius or something.

But, to your point, I do hold a special place in my heart for Camaros - my dad had two when I was growing up - and new gen HEMIs - my dad and I have supercharged two of them, one still sits in his garage, never to be sold.

I'm with you on that. Mustang and Camaro are two halves of the same coin. Attributes one has are most often shared to such a similar degree that one has to nit pick to see the difference. So to actually hate one, one would have to go out their way to hate aspects that the other also shares.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that execution plays a huge part. But I just feel that hating an inanimate object is too much of a waste of time and effort.

[ilirg]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

I'm with you on that. Mustang and Camaro are two halves of the same coin. Attributes one has are most often shared to such a similar degree that one has to not pick to see the difference. So to actually hate one, one would have to go out their way to hate aspects that the other also shares.

Now, don't get me wrong, I understand that execution plays a huge part. But I just feel that hating an inanimate object is too much of a waste of time and effort.

[whiteboyblues2001]

I like both. Growing up, my father had two different '66 Mustangs (the first was a 289 stick, and the second was an inline six with auto). But my uncle was a GM dealer (Chevy mostly, but other GM products as well throughout the years), so we got discounts on what he sold.

My take on the latest versions:

The Mustang still looks like a Mustang which is a good thing. But the front end looks a bit too corporate. I can live with that, but the back end looks horrible. Way to plastic looking. I like the Coyote engine, but wish it was DI and a bit larger displacement. It revs well through the RPM range, but feels a little light on the low end. Thank god they finally put IRS in the Mustang. Long overdue. I don't like how they structured the models, as the V6 looks like it's only for fleet sales now. The turbo 4 is too heavy. The brakes on the performance pack are completely overkill, and will be a big wake-up call for folks who have them once they find out the price to replace the pads and/or rotors. That should have been a seperate option. I also don't like how the 6th Gen Mustang doesn't out perform the 5th. Fail.

The Camaro looks great to me. I know others wanted a more radical change, but I didn't want that. The 5th Gen looked great so the 6th Gen looks even better. The rear end is not as good as the original 5th Gen rear, but it's growing on me. Love the rest in terms of external looks. Interior wise, I love the updated look, but don't like the Pink Floyd Laser Light Show stuff. Performance wise, Chevy hit a grand slam walk-off home run (based off of what we know so far), and I think this thing is going to spank the Mustang in all categories except price. I would have liked to see the electronic differential in the Camaro, or at least a Torsen rear. Also would have loved to see the performance data recorder as an option as well. The six piston Brembo option should have been a factory option instead of a dealer option, so it would be cheaper for those who want it (don't think I would want it). I haven't driven the LT1 yet, but some say it drops off a bit in the higher RPMs. I suspect that is true by looking at the dyno charts. But perhaps that is because it puts out such great torque in the low and mid ranges. It still puts out more torque than the Coyote accross the whole RPM range, so can't complain about that. Nothing is perfect I guess, but both the LT1 and Coyote are great engines as far as I am concerned.

So, overall, I like the Camaro better, but if there was only the Mustang available (like there used to be for many years), I would own one no problem. There in lies the rub: if there were no Camaro, the Mustang would not be as good as it is now. Competition is great for consumers.

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I like both. Growing up, my father had two different '66 Mustangs (the first was a 289 stick, and the second was an inline six with auto). But my uncle was a GM dealer (Chevy mostly, but other GM products as well throughout the years), so we got discounts on what he sold.

My take on the latest versions:

The Mustang still looks like a Mustang which is a good thing. But the front end looks a bit too corporate. I can live with that, but the back end looks horrible. Way to plastic looking. I like the Coyote engine, but wish it was DI and a bit larger displacement. It revs well through the RPM range, but feels a little light on the low end. Thank god they finally put IRS in the Mustang. Long overdue. I don't like how they structured the models, as the V6 looks like it's only for fleet sales now. The turbo 4 is too heavy. The brakes on the performance pack are completely overkill, and will be a big wake-up call for folks who have them once they find out the price to replace the pads and/or rotors. That should have been a seperate option. I also don't like how the 6th Gen Mustang doesn't out perform the 5th. Fail.

The Camaro looks great to me. I know others wanted a more radical change, but I didn't want that. The 5th Gen looked great so the 6th Gen looks even better. The rear end is not as good as the original 5th Gen rear, but it's growing on me. Love the rest in terms of external looks. Interior wise, I love the updated look, but don't like the Pink Floyd Laser Light Show stuff. Performance wise, Chevy hit a grand slam walk-off home run (based off of what we know so far), and I think this thing is going to spank the Mustang in all categories except price. I would have liked to see the electronic differential in the Camaro, or at least a Torsen rear. Also would have loved to see the performance data recorder as an option as well. The six piston Brembo option should have been a factory option instead of a dealer option, so it would be cheaper for those who want it (don't think I would want it). I haven't driven the LT1 yet, but some say it drops off a bit in the higher RPMs. I suspect that is true by looking at the dyno charts. But perhaps that is because it puts out such great torque in the low and mid ranges. It still puts out more torque than the Coyote accross the whole RPM range, so can't complain about that. Nothing is perfect I guess, but both the LT1 and Coyote are great engines as far as I am concerned.

So, overall, I like the Camaro better, but if there was only the Mustang available (like there used to be for many years), I would own one no problem. There in lies the rub: if there were no Camaro, the Mustang would not be as good as it is now. Competition is great for consumers.

[Noob]

@whiteboyblues2001
i agree with you on near all things.
Performance data recorder as in the C7 would be a very nice option, indeed.
And for the 6piston brembo´s i hope they will deliver it as std. or at least an option to europe as the Ford sells it´s PP as std. in ALL Stang´s for our faster autobahn driving.
But one thing i will not give up to complain about it; the oldschool pushrod´s V8 from chevy. I drove the coyote some thousands of km and chevy´s V8 in a Camaro 2012 and that LT1 in C7 for only 1000km but i said it and say it again; these pushrods have good torque from the cellar but that´s it, over 4000rpm it breathes hard and rev up to limit let me feel bad for it....for sporty driving i like the coyote better, much more lively. You dont feel the few hp left but a little less torque at low end of course with 1.2ltr left. Perhaps it´s due to our more sporty driving daily on autobahn why most europeans like a broader usable rev band more? Chevy´s fable to hold on on pushrods only! for the V8´s remembers me at the outgoing Ford policy where Mustangs came 10years with completely outdated life rearaxles. We have in germany some Mustang tuners and they did their best but never could match a modern IRS....a pushrod with same capacity as a modern DOHC will always have less power/torque, worse mpg and emission data. I remember my dad´sold BMW M6 from 2005 with it´s 5.0 n/a V10 cranking out 507hp at 7800rpm? i dont know anymore but these rpm´s are not possible with psuhrods and only 2valves/cyl. AUDI´s 4.2 n/a V8 in the RS5 cranks out 450 hp like the LT1 with 2ltr !! less capacity and i bet it is not heavier.
i was told to be a troll in that opinion but i dont care about that because facts always beats fanboys ;-)

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Noob

@whiteboyblues2001
i agree with you on near all things.
Performance data recorder as in the C7 would be a very nice option, indeed.
And for the 6piston brembo´s i hope they will deliver it as std. or at least an option to europe as the Ford sells it´s PP as std. in ALL Stang´s for our faster autobahn driving.
But one thing i will not give up to complain about it; the oldschool pushrod´s V8 from chevy. I drove the coyote some thousands of km and chevy´s V8 in a Camaro 2012 and that LT1 in C7 for only 1000km but i said it and say it again; these pushrods have good torque from the cellar but that´s it, over 4000rpm it breathes hard and rev up to limit let me feel bad for it....for sporty driving i like the coyote better, much more lively. You dont feel the few hp left but a little less torque at low end of course with 1.2ltr left. Perhaps it´s due to our more sporty driving daily on autobahn why most europeans like a broader usable rev band more? Chevy´s fable to hold on on pushrods only! for the V8´s remembers me at the outgoing Ford policy where Mustangs came 10years with completely outdated life rearaxles. We have in germany some Mustang tuners and they did their best but never could match a modern IRS....a pushrod with same capacity as a modern DOHC will always have less power/torque, worse mpg and emission data. I remember my dad´sold BMW M6 from 2005 with it´s 5.0 n/a V10 cranking out 507hp at 7800rpm? i dont know anymore but these rpm´s are not possible with psuhrods and only 2valves/cyl. AUDI´s 4.2 n/a V8 in the RS5 cranks out 450 hp like the LT1 with 2ltr !! less capacity and i bet it is not heavier.
i was told to be a troll in that opinion but i dont care about that because facts always beats fanboys ;-)

While it is possible to rev higher with pushrods (the LS7 redlines at 7,000 rpm), everything has it's tradeoffs. When you put your peak HP at high rpm's you have to shape your cam to move the peak torque near the peak HP. This removes torque from down low. Using variable valve timing and direct injection helps to broaden the torque curve across all rmp's. This helps both OHC and OHV engines. I suspect that the free reving you feel from the Coyote is largely due to the variable valve timing giving you better low end torque while the OHC lets you rev higher. Adding VVT to the pushrod engine helps with the upper end on the OHV engine, BUT in GM's implimentation, there is only one cam, so you can not adjust the exhaust and intake valves sparately. This may be partly responsible for the drop off in the high end on the LT1. BUT, keep in mind that it is mostly emissions and fuel efficiency that is making the GM engineers tune the cam to a non agressive profile. If you were to replace the cam with a more agressive one, the top end would open up very nicely. Of course you won't get as good of gas mileage, but it's all a trade off.

WIth that said, some of the information you posted is factually inacurate. An OHC engine will NOT put out more torque than and OHV engine. All that happens when you switch to an OHC engine is you can rev a bit higher. Since HP=TQ x RPM/5252 you ONLY add HP NOT torque!

So let's say you and I are both engineers at a car company who wants to make it's existing engine significanly more powerfull. You decide to add OHC to the engine, and I decide to add displacement. Your engine will add HP at the top end, and everything else will remain the same. My engine will add low end torque, mid range torque, high end torque, low end HP, mid range HP, and high end HP. How is yours better again? It's not. Why is it not? Because folks like you keep comparing and OHV engine with a OHC engine of the same displacement. But in the real world displacement wins. Take a look at the 2016 SS and the 2016 Mustang GT. The Camaro blows the GT away in performance across the board! Sure it redlines at 6500 instead of 7000, but that is no comfort when losing the race!

My main issue with OHC is you HAVE TO rev the engine to get power. It feels to me like you always have to downshift and make the engine scream to get any use out of it. I like there to be power in every rpm range. I don't want to HAVE to downshift. I would like to to be an option of course, but I don't want to have to do it to make power. Feels lame.

[xgnxs]

Originally Posted by Noob

@whiteboyblues2001
i agree with you on near all things.
Performance data recorder as in the C7 would be a very nice option, indeed.
And for the 6piston brembo´s i hope they will deliver it as std. or at least an option to europe as the Ford sells it´s PP as std. in ALL Stang´s for our faster autobahn driving.
But one thing i will not give up to complain about it; the oldschool pushrod´s V8 from chevy. I drove the coyote some thousands of km and chevy´s V8 in a Camaro 2012 and that LT1 in C7 for only 1000km but i said it and say it again; these pushrods have good torque from the cellar but that´s it, over 4000rpm it breathes hard and rev up to limit let me feel bad for it....for sporty driving i like the coyote better, much more lively. You dont feel the few hp left but a little less torque at low end of course with 1.2ltr left. Perhaps it´s due to our more sporty driving daily on autobahn why most europeans like a broader usable rev band more? Chevy´s fable to hold on on pushrods only! for the V8´s remembers me at the outgoing Ford policy where Mustangs came 10years with completely outdated life rearaxles. We have in germany some Mustang tuners and they did their best but never could match a modern IRS....a pushrod with same capacity as a modern DOHC will always have less power/torque, worse mpg and emission data. I remember my dad´sold BMW M6 from 2005 with it´s 5.0 n/a V10 cranking out 507hp at 7800rpm? i dont know anymore but these rpm´s are not possible with psuhrods and only 2valves/cyl. AUDI´s 4.2 n/a V8 in the RS5 cranks out 450 hp like the LT1 with 2ltr !! less capacity and i bet it is not heavier.
i was told to be a troll in that opinion but i dont care about that because facts always beats fanboys ;-)

One thing you have to keep in mind in the never ending OHC / OHV debate... the physical size of the engine is larger with an OHC engine. Yes, it's smaller in displacement, but larger in physical size. You could probably fit a big block OHV engine in place of a OHC small block.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/attach...1&d=1441539404

Considering physical space (which, you know, is kind of a concern given that we all operate in physical space), an OHV engine will always be capable of more displacement, power, and torque, with equal fuel economy and emissions as a similarly sized OHC engine (compare the 2015 mustang with the 5.0 to the 2015 camaro with the 6.2 for fuel economy).

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by xgnxs

One thing you have to keep in mind in the never ending OHC / OHV debate... the physical size of the engine is larger with an OHC engine. Yes, it's smaller in displacement, but larger in physical size. You could probably fit a big block OHV engine in place of a OHC small block.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/attach...1&d=1441539404

Considering physical space (which, you know, is kind of a concern given that we all operate in physical space), an OHV engine will always be capable of more displacement, power, and torque, with equal fuel economy and emissions as a similarly sized OHC engine (compare the 2015 mustang with the 5.0 to the 2015 camaro with the 6.2 for fuel economy).

Very true. GM considered OHC when they were developing the LT1, but it's too big (especailly too tall) to fit in the Corvette. Can you imagine trying to fit a supercharged OHC engine into the Corvette? Not going to happen. But the LT4 fits nicely.