What exactly burns the clutch on an m6?

[CC Performance]

Originally Posted by helmincamaro

lol, to make my long story sound simple..... yes . The clutch is a similar material to your brake pads and works in a similar way. The flywheel is spinning freely at the same speed as your engine. When you let the pedal out and it starts to grab, the clutch is starting to rub up against the surface and once there's enough friction, it basically locks to it and off you go! When the clutch pedal is pushed in, its basically just sitting there by itself doing nothing and not getting harmed. When the clutch starts getting old and worn out, it doesn't grab as good and you'll hear people say "their clutch is slipping". Basically its just not locking up completely due to a lack of friction and the car will lose power. lol, I guess thats enough for the basics You can rev to 6K with the clutch pushed in and its not gonna hurt a thing.

Great explanation!

You can burn the clutch out or use up all the gripping material by letting it out slowly and stepping on the gas. By nature you slip the clutch a little everytime you take off. BUT if you over do it you will wear the clutch sooner and burn it out quicker. You can smell the clutch when you've slipped it to much as well, it has a nasty smell to it.

[f5journal]

Originally Posted by Russ

Down shifting;
Ive never heard of or seen someone actually revving the engine to sync to the appropriate gear,or "rev match".
When I down shift (approaching a stop and say Im in 5th) I brake a little, if needed, until the rpms come down to the range for fourth on their own. the same to 3rd,2nd.
As your slowing the rpms will naturally drop, with foot out of the gas ofcourse. So why would you need rev match when they drop on thier own.

Oh and just for qualification, Ive been driving manuals for over 20yrs now. Man, I really hope someone doesnt tell me Ive been doing wrong for 20 yrs. Lol.

In many respects, revving the engine to match or synchronize is similar to the purpose and operation of the transmission sychronizers inside the transmission

"Back in the day" synchro's were not as efficient as they are today and some transmissions actually did not have synchro's. You had to match the speeds manually as posted earlier to get the gears to mesh. Same goes for downshifting without using the clutch

[Russ]

Originally Posted by BigCarrot

I down shift to slow down but never let the rpm jump above 2k and never down shift below 3rd. I've never tried rev matching to down shift (just seemed like a waste of gas and I figure going from 1k to 1.5-2k rpm isn't putting too much strain on anything).

+1
I just dont understand touching the gas to match the gear you want when shifting. Seems more logical to grab the appropriate gear to what the RPMs already are as your slowing down. Ofcourse Im only speaking of road driving. I know nothing about track driving. But, Ive never owned a Camaro. So, it may be time for some pointers. Got a good thread for that 'round here?

Originally Posted by C586

You have been doing it wrong for 20 years. You rev the engine to match engine speed to output shaft speed. On the track this is done while braking so you don't waste time shifting when you come out of the corner. Some do it on the street because they can. The way your doing it isn't wrong just not right. The way your doing it you should just come to a stop and go to first or 2nd if u get the green before your completely stopped.

Thanks for that.

[Camaro Fan]

Originally Posted by Russ

+1
I just dont understand touching the gas to match the gear you want when shifting. Seems more logical to grab the appropriate gear to what the RPMs already are as your slowing down. Ofcourse Im only speaking of road driving. I know nothing about track driving. But, Ive never owned a Camaro. So, it may be time for some pointers. Got a good thread for that 'round here?


Thanks for that.

I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about downshifting. The whole idea of downshifting as you slow down is to end up at a higher rpm more suitable for acceleration at your current road speed than the rpm you were at in the higher gear you were already in.

Obviously you realize that in 5th gear at say 1500rpm at some given road speed, if I was in 4th gear at the same road speed instead I'd be at say 2000rpm or whatever. So if I'm going to downshift to 4th the proper thing to do would be to blip the throttle so that as I move the shifter into 4th and release the clutch I'm at 2000 rpm already.

If you didn't rev match in that situation then you just put some extra wear on the tranny syncros as the gears meshed and some extra wear on the clutch as you slip it and engine speed is raised by the clutch instead of by the throttle (and the engine braking effect would have slowed you down some opposed to rev matching correctly too).


If you're just sitting there coasting down, clutch in/tranny out of gear then yeah I guess you could wait to engage whatever gear would leave you closest to idle speed. I'd prefer to blip the throttle to bring engine speed to 2000 rpm or whatever and engage that appropriate gear opposed to lugging the car from a low speed just off idle...

[OrangeVert]

Russell, thanks for mentioning the cooling effect of the spinning flywheel. Been driving manuals for almost 28 years and never thought of that.

[PercyJWellingtonIII]

Originally Posted by DarkneSS

This is my first manual car so sorry if this is a question I should already know the answer too.

My question, in more detail, is at what point does the clutch actually start to get "used up" or "burned"?

Is it when the clutch is depressed at all and you press the gas?

Or is it when you press the gas and the clutch is depressed into its "catch" range?

Basically if I'm just sitting with the car in first gear and the clutch all the way pressed in, and I give it gas, am I burning up the clutch? Or does it only start burning when I release it into the grabbing point?

When my motor blew their "master" level tech came out and put the car in first and started slowly revving the motor with clutch all the way in. In my head I was like, "UHHH YOURE BURNING MY CLUTCH?!" Or was he not because it wasnt at the catch point?

This is important to me because as I am unsure it changes how I downshift. As of now I think that any gas that's given if the clutch is pressed in anyway burns it. Thus to downshift I put the car in neutral and rev up to the needed rpms and then put it into a lower gear. So 3rd to second would go, clutch in, move to neutral, rev up ~2000 Rpms, quickly press in clutch and put into second to catch the rpm spike.

If however the clutch is not being burned when fully depressed I could just go like this, clutch in + rev up whatever rpms needed WHILE putting the car into 2nd.

Again sorry if I should know this but I feel like its not that obvious unless someone teaches you. Any solid answers are appreciated!

=======================

The only time its wearing is at the friction point/engaging. To reduce wear don't ride the clutch, keep it all the way in or all the way out. NO in between.

[PercyJWellingtonIII]

Originally Posted by helmincamaro

to put it simple, think of the engine, clutch and transmission like a sandwich. When the clutch pedal all the way in... it like a sandwich thats not put together yet, the clutch is like the meat just there by itself. The only time it burns is when its slipping (from when it starts to grab til your completely let off the pedal). Sitting at a traffic light with the clutch all the way in won't cause any harm... there's a lot of different opinions as to rather you should sit in neutral with the foot off the clutch or in gear at a traffic light. I was always taught to keep my foot off the clutch as much as possible. Every time you push the clutch in or hold it in... your pushing on the throwout bearing... in theory, the more you push it on it, the faster its gonna wear out. Its a fairly cheap part, but why wear something out faster than needed? I've also had people argue that in traffic, its better to keep it in 1st at a stop in case you have to roll up quickly... I've never had any trouble getting into 1st quickly . I also think a lot of people who complain about their legs getting tired from driving in traffic are probably holding the clutch in. Most new car's aren't too bad IMO... most have a pretty light clutch, but go drive an old truck that you gotta practically have to stand on it to get the pedal to go in, You'll learn to stay off it!

----
All this sandwhich talk is making me hungry.

[RJNavarrete]

Originally Posted by Camaro Fan

I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about downshifting. The whole idea of downshifting as you slow down is to end up at a higher rpm more suitable for acceleration at your current road speed than the rpm you were at in the higher gear you were already in.

Obviously you realize that in 5th gear at say 1500rpm at some given road speed, if I was in 4th gear at the same road speed instead I'd be at say 2000rpm or whatever. So if I'm going to downshift to 4th the proper thing to do would be to blip the throttle so that as I move the shifter into 4th and release the clutch I'm at 2000 rpm already.

If you didn't rev match in that situation then you just put some extra wear on the tranny syncros as the gears meshed and some extra wear on the clutch as you slip it and engine speed is raised by the clutch instead of by the throttle (and the engine braking effect would have slowed you down some opposed to rev matching correctly too).


If you're just sitting there coasting down, clutch in/tranny out of gear then yeah I guess you could wait to engage whatever gear would leave you closest to idle speed. I'd prefer to blip the throttle to bring engine speed to 2000 rpm or whatever and engage that appropriate gear opposed to lugging the car from a low speed just off idle...

Yea, I don't think some of these guys know what downshifting really is. If you're in 5th at 3500 rpm, and you downshift into 4th without blipping the throttle a bit, you're going to bog and buckle pretty bad...

[respawn]

I have had my v6 manual for a year now (just got a new brake tag yesterday). I STILL have trouble getting out of first gear without jerking. I cannot figure it out! I have been driving a shift since my ford lynx L7 in high school 20 years ago. I thought it would get easier as the car got worn in, but its been a year and passengers still complain about wimplash as I get into 2nd. Gears 2-6 I have no problem. I dont know how to fix it. =(

[vinman]

Why downshift if you aren't racing? I just throw it in neutral and coast to the stop, less wear on the entire drivetrain. Brake pads are cheaper than a new clutch......just sayin. Anything wrong with my method?

[nUcLeArEnVoY]

You have to wear the clutch a little just to get the car going in the first place. The clutch is undergoing wear at any point between being fully disengaged/engaged or when not in neutral. What does major damage to it is high revs and spending to long keeping it halfway depressed.

[Steve Dallas]

I personally leave the clutch pushed in at lights, mainly because why wear the part more by letting it off in neutral then pushing it in again. 2 times pushing the pedal? To me, this will wear parts more than simply keeping the clutch in, shifting to first and waiting for the light to turn green. Just my opinion on this...

[BlkThndr66]

Originally Posted by Camaro Fan

I'm not sure I understand how you're thinking about downshifting. The whole idea of downshifting as you slow down is to end up at a higher rpm more suitable for acceleration at your current road speed than the rpm you were at in the higher gear you were already in.

Obviously you realize that in 5th gear at say 1500rpm at some given road speed, if I was in 4th gear at the same road speed instead I'd be at say 2000rpm or whatever. So if I'm going to downshift to 4th the proper thing to do would be to blip the throttle so that as I move the shifter into 4th and release the clutch I'm at 2000 rpm already.

If you didn't rev match in that situation then you just put some extra wear on the tranny syncros as the gears meshed and some extra wear on the clutch as you slip it and engine speed is raised by the clutch instead of by the throttle (and the engine braking effect would have slowed you down some opposed to rev matching correctly too).


If you're just sitting there coasting down, clutch in/tranny out of gear then yeah I guess you could wait to engage whatever gear would leave you closest to idle speed. I'd prefer to blip the throttle to bring engine speed to 2000 rpm or whatever and engage that appropriate gear opposed to lugging the car from a low speed just off idle...

Couldn't have said it better myself. Exactly.

Originally Posted by RJNavarrete

Yea, I don't think some of these guys know what downshifting really is. If you're in 5th at 3500 rpm, and you downshift into 4th without blipping the throttle a bit, you're going to bog and buckle pretty bad...

absolutely!

Originally Posted by vinman

Why downshift if you aren't racing? I just throw it in neutral and coast to the stop, less wear on the entire drivetrain. Brake pads are cheaper than a new clutch......just sayin. Anything wrong with my method?

Totally. I do that a lot to save on gas and wear. If I anticipate that the light will soon turn green, or I will start to accelerate soon after the initial braking, I'll blip the throttle [My mom used to call it givin' it a lil drink. hahaha love it. ] up to the appropriate rpm for the lower gear. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with your method, if anything, it's the most conservative and wear-resistant method. Think of it like driving an automatic transmission. In an auto the car will shift into semi-neutral [engage a portion of the internal clutches] under braking conditions; and it just uses the braking power to slow down. On the other hand a manual you can pick your gear and engine-brake in addition to hard braking. It's like splitting the duty between 2 modes; instead you chose to let the Brakes be the Brakes. hahaha; if that makes any sense.... ........ .....

aaand continue

[TheHorse13]

Some seem to be fans of engine braking by downshifting as they decelerate to a redlight. I can tell you that back in the 80s we had driver education and at the time this is the method taught to students along with keeping the car in gear and the clutch pedal fully pressed to the floor when at a stop.

Rev-matching was never discussed and clutch wear was explained as, "...when the clutch begins to grab and until the clutch pedal is fully released...".

Other things that were taught is that engine breaking with a manual was not going to cause significant wear if done correctly by learning the speed ranges in each gear for your vehicle.

I've used the above method on the street (daily driving) and I have never worn out a clutch. The last vehicle I had was a Jeep with 143,000+ on the original clutch and it was still fine when I sold it.

another 2 cents...lol