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Old 03-24-2014, 03:31 PM   #1023
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
Yes, that's the entire GD point. You keep jumping in to defend GM when that's irrelevant. We don't want 4 cylinder sports/muscle cars, as evidenced by the market choosing V8's. So it's moot why V8's become less affordable, or even not available. It doesn't mean the 4 cylinder will be appealing, because it won't.
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Old 03-24-2014, 03:41 PM   #1024
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For those pooh-poohing the idea of a 4-cylinder Camaro because of the anemic real world performance-economy of the early Gen-3s, THREE things need to be considered:

1) The Iron Duke 2.5 of that era made all of 100 hp or so, in a 3100 lb. Base car, a staggering 31 lb/hp Weight-to-Power ratio. A 200 hp n/a 2.5L, today, in a 3300 lb. Alpha-based platform will equate to 16.5 lb/hp...better than a 305 Z28 had back then (150 hp/3300 lb)...and will return nearly 40 mpg. Hiway...

2) Camaros for Fleet use (yes, there are some) are all about low maintenance and operating co$t$...see "nearly 40 mpg Hiway"...

3) How many Mustangs have been sold, over the years, with 4-cylinder engines? And that car is about to celebrate 50 years of uninterrupted success...

There is SURELY a market for 4-cylinder Gen-6 Camaros, and the car's continued availability AND success may depend on it...

Here's what Car and Driver had to say about a 2.5L ATS (which is a heavier car than the Camaro will be): We first drove an ATS with the base engine, a 202-hp, 2.5-liter four-cylinder with direct injection. It’s available only with a six-speed automatic and rear drive. This engine... delivers...claimed 0 to 60 in 7.5 seconds, which we think is about right on the nose...

BTW, 1983 Z28s, road tested with 305s in both 5-Speed Manual and 4-Speed Automatic, ran 0-60 in 8.5 to 9.0 seconds...and the H.O. 305s ran 0-60 in 7.3 seconds...
Are you really comparing cars from the 1970's to now? Are you trying to claim that a 4 banger today is more desirable than the v8's of 40 years ago based on performance? Dude. Everything has improved in 40 years tech wise. You might as well compare cell phones from the 70's (the brick in a bag) to smart phones now. Or compare computers from the 70's-- it still doesn't mean everyone will want a hybrid 4 banger muscle car.

Prius can probably out run a 70's car too. I don't want a Camaro Prius.
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Old 03-24-2014, 03:54 PM   #1025
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Great post... I couldn't find it, but I believe in the past V6 sales have equaled and maybe even surpassed V8 sales...

And another point that some people don't get is, is there is a whole big group of people that buy a car strictly on how it LOOKS and could care less what the power plant is, whether it's 4, 6 or 8 cylinders...
If this is the case and who Camaro engineers wish to cater to, then why make a V8 at all? Why not make the Camaro a sporty LOOKING car with a dog of a 4 cylinder engine calibrated to get good gas milage? It could be like a Saturn and appeal to Malibu owning secretaries or spark drivers who want something sporty.

(It 'll have racing stripes and a maybe a little wing!)
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Old 03-24-2014, 04:32 PM   #1026
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This is kind of old, but it gives you a good idea of what consumers are buying. If you want GM to listen to you, then you better be buying a new V8 every year or they will start to ask if it is economically feasible to keep developing them when so few people buy them.

http://www.dailytech.com/Fourcylinde...ticle17924.htm
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Old 03-24-2014, 05:52 PM   #1027
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This is kind of old, but it gives you a good idea of what consumers are buying. If you want GM to listen to you, then you better be buying a new V8 every year or they will start to ask if it is economically feasible to keep developing them when so few people buy them.

http://www.dailytech.com/Fourcylinde...ticle17924.htm
It is clear that grocery getters sell more than muscle cars. Price and govt regulations limit people choices. The Toyota Camry sells more units than the Corvette-- and if that is what GM is after, if that's what we say is valid on an enthusiast site, then apply it to the Vette as well.

Turn the Vette into a bland 4 cylinder car with a mountain of ugly beige plastic in it and a dog of an engine. If sold units are the be all and end all--based on statistical sales numbers, then all car companies should only make Camry knockoffs.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:19 AM   #1028
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It is clear that grocery getters sell more than muscle cars. Price and govt regulations limit people choices. The Toyota Camry sells more units than the Corvette-- and if that is what GM is after, if that's what we say is valid on an enthusiast site, then apply it to the Vette as well.

Turn the Vette into a bland 4 cylinder car with a mountain of ugly beige plastic in it and a dog of an engine. If sold units are the be all and end all--based on statistical sales numbers, then all car companies should only make Camry knockoffs.
So when the trucks no longer have gasoline V8s, what reason does GM have to keep producing them? The Corvette and Camaro would go up in price dramatically if they were the only vehicles that had a V8. You can't put the kind of money the invested into the new generation V8 and only sale 100K - 130K a year without charging a premium price. People complained about the price of the Z/28. People complained about the looks of the SS Sedan. People complain there might be a turbo 4 in the Camaro so they can still offer a V8.

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
--Charles Rosner, 1967.


If you are not buying a V8 every year, you are not part of the solution.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:29 AM   #1029
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Back around 2010 Bob Lutz said GM's cost to build a V6 or V8 Camaro was almost the same. If you look to buy both engines as crate motors there is only about a $900 difference.

Yet there has been about $8k in price difference between the LS and SS.

I don't know where SS owners are laying down all these 5 second 0-60 times that justify the paying Chevy all that markup but my experience owning V8's has been that traffic only moves as fast as the Geo Metros and other beaters ahead of and boxing me in traffic.
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:09 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Outlander View Post
Back around 2010 Bob Lutz said GM's cost to build a V6 or V8 Camaro was almost the same. If you look to buy both engines as crate motors there is only about a $900 difference.

Yet there has been about $8k in price difference between the LS and SS.

I don't know where SS owners are laying down all these 5 second 0-60 times that justify the paying Chevy all that markup but my experience owning V8's has been that traffic only moves as fast as the Geo Metros and other beaters ahead of and boxing me in traffic.
You do know there is more difference between the SS and V6 models than just the engine...
Not everyone drives in city traffic....there's a big wide country outside the city, maybe you should take a drive in it sometime.
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:00 PM   #1031
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Originally Posted by Outlander View Post
Back around 2010 Bob Lutz said GM's cost to build a V6 or V8 Camaro was almost the same. If you look to buy both engines as crate motors there is only about a $900 difference.

Yet there has been about $8k in price difference between the LS and SS.

I don't know where SS owners are laying down all these 5 second 0-60 times that justify the paying Chevy all that markup but my experience owning V8's has been that traffic only moves as fast as the Geo Metros and other beaters ahead of and boxing me in traffic.
Drive a metro then. I've had the V6 and the V8 Camaro and I can tell the difference. If I could afford a new car every year I would do as Gretchen suggests, but few of us can. So I buy the car I like. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. (Again unless we are forced to like with medical.) " if you like your car you can keep it"... Might turn into everybody has to buy a hybrid metro Geo!

But I reject the idea that it's my fault for not buying a new car every year (unlike congress) I try to live within my means.

They ( our elected officials) use hot button topics to get themselves elected. This Cafe crap is one of them. The idea is to nudge Americans into getting rid of gasoline driven cars and use public transport, bikes, and electric conveyances.

They want to regulate performance cars and muscle cars to the past and have everyone drive an electric egg shaped green wheeled cart thingie. :(
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:25 PM   #1032
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You do know there is more difference between the SS and V6 models than just the engine...
Not everyone drives in city traffic....there's a big wide country outside the city, maybe you should take a drive in it sometime.
According to Bob, from GM's cost perspective, it's about the same.

I drive all over and in a wide variety of conditions. I live in the north and don't park my Camaro in the winter because of a silly tire/wheel combo. Ive never lived anywhere that I was able to use a Mustang GT or SS full capabilities legally on the street.

On topic, The adage that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow rings true. If they can avoid making the next generation a 3500 pound tank a 4 could be a fun ride.
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:36 PM   #1033
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According to Bob, from GM's cost perspective, it's about the same.

I drive all over and in a wide variety of conditions. I live in the north and don't park my Camaro in the winter because of a silly tire/wheel combo. Ive never lived anywhere that I was able to use a Mustang GT or SS full capabilities legally on the street.

On topic, The adage that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow rings true. If they can avoid making the next generation a 3500 pound tank a 4 could be a fun ride.
You probably can't use the full capabilities of your V6 either, but that's not the point of having one. There really haven't been many cars made in the last 20 years that you could use their full capabilities on the street. Just maybe those cars that are only built for commuting or to get 50mpg.
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:56 PM   #1034
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I always wonder though since we are on an enthusiast site for a pony/muscle car-- if the people who are lauding the four cylinder for its fuel stingy ways, would be happier on a Geo metro site. If you find no difference between the V6 and the V8 then you probably won't find a difference between the 4 banger and the 6.

Maybe like the last guy said, you can't go faster than a geo, so who cares?

Show of hands how many if you had a picture of a metro Geo on your bedroom wall as a kid?

How many of you walked toward your metro Geo across a parking lot with a perma-grin plastered on your face and thought -- "yeah man, I'm gonna save a few nickels in gas today! I get to drive my Geo again!

Do you look for excuses to drive a Geo? Do you say " hey baby let's go for a drive in the country and turn this beast loose! I bet it doesn't cost us much gas!

Do guys in motor cycle gangs on Route 66 stop you at a gas station in appreciative awe and wax rhapsodic on metro geo's they have owned, how much they like the new body style and invite you to come to Sturgis with them?

I say not so much. But your experience could differ from mine. But if it doesn't don't be quick to turn this legendary car into a metro geo just because you want to save a little gas.

Just buy yourself the Geo.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:04 PM   #1035
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I always wonder though since we are on an enthusiast site for a pony/muscle car-- if the people who are lauding the four cylinder for its fuel stingy ways, would be happier on a Geo metro site. If you find no difference between the V6 and the V8 then you probably won't find a difference between the 4 banger and the 6.

Maybe like the last guy said, you can't go faster than a geo, so who cares?

Show of hands how many if you had a picture of a metro Geo on your bedroom wall as a kid?

How many of you walked toward your metro Geo across a parking lot with a perma-grin plastered on your face and thought -- "yeah man, I'm gonna save a few nickels in gas today! I get to drive my Geo again!

Do you look for excuses to drive a Geo? Do you say " hey baby let's go for a drive in the country and turn this beast loose! I bet it doesn't cost us much gas!

Do guys in motor cycle gangs on Route 66 stop you at a gas station in appreciative awe and wax rhapsodic on metro geo's they have owned, how much they like the new body style and invite you to come to Sturgis with them?

I say not so much. But your experience could differ from mine. But if it doesn't don't be quick to turn this legendary car into a metro geo just because you want to save a little gas.

Just buy yourself the Geo.
I guess my point is that a Camaro with a turbo 4 probably won't be anything like a Metro (or my wife's Sonic; which I love to drive on short trips). If it takes a turbo 4 base model for GM to offer a V8 in future Camaros, then I have know problem with it. People can't on the one hand say they won't try to change the law and on the other hand dismiss ways GM may be forced to respond to the law and still expect to keep the V8 around. Saying you won't buy a V8 Camaro if the base model has four cylinders is sending the wrong message, IMHO.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:36 PM   #1036
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I guess my point is that a Camaro with a turbo 4 probably won't be anything like a Metro (or my wife's Sonic; which I love to drive on short trips). If it takes a turbo 4 base model for GM to offer a V8 in future Camaros, then I have know problem with it. People can't on the one hand say they won't try to change the law and on the other hand dismiss ways GM may be forced to respond to the law and still expect to keep the V8 around. Saying you won't buy a V8 Camaro if the base model has four cylinders is sending the wrong message, IMHO.
What message do you think I'm sending? The one I'm trying to send is don't ruin this car. Don't make a crappy car to keep the V8 at a higher price point. (Like SRT) They might make the 4 the main car, the turbo 4 the SS and the only V8 a Zl1, or Z28.

The only message that matters is if car companies can't sell us govt mandated crap, they will fight back and exert more pressure than I ever could.

I can call my congressman all I want, but if I buy the crappy product anyway then they will say "see, they like it."

Money talks, and if mandated 50 mpg egg shaped electric hamster cars going beedow beedow beedow don't sell, then congressmen will get leaned on and laws will change.
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