10-04-2011, 12:56 PM | #71 | ||
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Quote:
Also, don't forget inflation, cars were cheaper to make in 2004 and 2007 then they were to produce in 2009. An economic disaster would have seen prices on almost everything increase.. You can see this in almost every product throughout the years. There is nothing wrong with mass production, but when sales don't amass to that number.. then there are bound to be losses.. Quote:
Last edited by thePill; 10-04-2011 at 01:17 PM. |
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10-04-2011, 02:22 PM | #72 |
Drives: 2011 Black/Black 2LT/RS M6 w/Sroof Join Date: Jul 2009
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Take a chill pill, "the pill." Who cares if the 5th Gen isn't selling as well as muscle cars used to? No shit, people aren't buying more impractical performance cars today as they were in the 60s-90s? Oh noes!!!
All of his marketing babble and attempts in trashing GM every chance he gets is largely irrelevant to most folks here, though I agree that it does provide a fair chunk of entertainment value as some others have mentioned. I'd say his Joker avatar is quite a good fit, except the entertainment here is more like the kind you get from a fat kid rolling down a hill. But hey, this is the internet. Whatever floats your boat, whatever tickles your pickle. As far as the Camaro and its sales are concerned, it's interesting to see it still outsell the "new" Mustang, as it confirms the judgment of the segment consumers. I don't have anything against the Mustang really, it's a great car. I just like the Camaro a little better. I would love to see GM falling over themselves benchmarking the shit out of the new Mustang. What have I got to lose? And I highly doubt that the pony car market might be all but gone in the coming years as the pill says, although it would be a nice change of pace not having to see increasing numbers of Camaros every day, at least where I live. I'd prefer it not become as common as Mustangs to be honest. I hope for the pill's sake that the newer new Mustang will be able to outsell the Camaro when it comes out. Otherwise it would make everything he says that much more hilarious. |
10-04-2011, 05:38 PM | #73 |
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With the 2012 Camaro out sales should jump high again! Especially with the ZL1
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10-04-2011, 06:25 PM | #74 | |
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Although, I must admit ... I may be taking the wrong approach on this one. Afterall, you made the claim. It is your responsibility to back it up. But not with opinions, not guesses, not general statements. Facts & numbers. Afterall, to make a definitive claim like Dodge is making more money per Challenger than GM on the Camaro, or Ford on the Mustang, you must surely have numbers that, right? Because if you don't have something that shows that Dodge makes, I don't know, say $2,217 per Challenger (on average) while GM makes $1,812 off of Camaros, and Ford makes $1,994 on Mustangs you can't justifiably say one way or the other which is more profitable, can you? Sure, you could guess or speculate but without numbers you wouldn't know would you? So since you clearly aren't pulling this out of thin air, show me the article or press release where the profit per vehicle on the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger are broken down. If its from a respectable source, I will have no choice but to believe it. Or, if you did all the number crunching yourself, show me how much the OEMs sell each car for, as well as how much it costs for them to build each one, and what the incentives package is for each one sold (and your sources for all this). I'll double check your numbers.
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Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
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10-04-2011, 07:46 PM | #75 |
Drives: 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lomita,CA
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Why is the Pill so disconnected with reality?
It doesn't take a mathematician to be able to tell that the pony car market is currently larger then it was in 2005, back then with only the Msutang it was something like 160,000 units a year and we are well above that point as we are already at 157,000 units and we have 2 months left in this year. I expect that in the next two months we will add about 30,000+ units to this total for an est. of 190,000 units. This makes the pony car market some 30,000 units larger then it was in 2005 and not to mention that the total auto market was larger then. So the market share that the pony car segment makes up is much bigger then it was in 2005. I do not know why the pill expects the pony car segment to be twice as large now then it was in 2005 when the total market volume is down by 1/3 compared to 2005 and with that in mind the total pony car market should actually be at 107,000 units so its going to be this year almost double what it should be. This also is only based on the traditional 3 not including the Hyundai Genesis coupe which is a competitor in this market segment, if you include its total volume year to date and you really blow the 2005 numbers out of the water. So I can not figure out what it is that the pill is getting on about, I don't even think that he knows what he is going on at. It just seems that he is bitter because the Mustang isn't the sales leader in this market segment, so instead of just admitting it he just rather make stuff up out of thin air. Last edited by doc7000; 10-04-2011 at 08:02 PM. |
10-04-2011, 10:25 PM | #76 |
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The Pontiac GTO and G8 were awesome cars. Both were manufactured in Australia at GM's Holden factory and imported to the States. Holden is still making the G8 today as the Holden GTS.
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/...alia201144.jpg http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/...alia201142.jpg
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10-04-2011, 10:41 PM | #77 | |
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Quote:
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10-05-2011, 01:10 PM | #78 | ||
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Quote:
The market is growing smaller, the Mustang sales numbers are absolutely horrible right now.. I think everyone on this site would agree... So what does that make the other pony cars? Actually, the Mustang's sales were considered bad in 2008 when total sales were 94,000... Which is right where the Camaro has been since it came out... I am having a hard time understanding, when the Camaro sales 61,000, 98,000 and looks like 89,000 cars a year, for 3 of its first years... how does that make more profit when invoices are similar but production years were spread out in a 3-5 year period and affected by inflation? I want to understand this.... The numbers are not there and never were, are you saying that GM somehow discovered a way to avoid inflation, produce the 2010 Camaro for less than the first year Mustang and Challenger and somehow... somehow... paid for the loans in which R&D came from, produced a profit on a car that has been available for only half the time at the same price of competition? All the while, they are overproducing the product by 20%... I am no rocket surgeon but I can always ask Alice if this is feasible here is a link to what we are talking about... www.commonsense.com Just a joke, don't hit me with the ban hammer... Quote:
Last edited by thePill; 10-05-2011 at 02:07 PM. |
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10-05-2011, 03:53 PM | #79 |
Drives: 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix Join Date: Oct 2010
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no the Pill you are far and away from reality..........
Firstly when a new product line is created yes they have sales goals and a business model is built around those sales goals. That is why the Porsche 911 can be produced without selling 40,000 of them a month are you still with me? try to keep up. Yes the Camaro sales goals (which were stated when the economy was in good shape) was 100,000-150,000 units a year (how you are able to completely disconnect the current economic state with sales data is beyond rational thinking). Secondly you are looking at total Camaro's produced for global consumption to how many were sold in the US only. You can actually point out that Ford has sold Mustangs out side of the US however fail to come to this conclusion about the Camaro (once more how you manage to do this). You state the obvious and some how think that this makes you god or smarter then other people. yes if you can make a vehicle for less money then yes your profits will be higher and you can make more money selling fewer of them. However if you can instead of making it for less money figure out how to charge people more money for that car then you also increase profits. Secondly when it comes to a market segment just adding more cars to that market segment doesn't mean you are going to grow that market segment by the sales of the new vehicles. You actually have cross shop in a market segment and while you may grow the market segment you are also taking sales from other vehicles in that market segment. You have to look at the total sales of that market segment to look at the health of that market segment. Based on the total sales of that market segment (in the US only) it was 160,000 units in 2005 and is more then that now. Clearly in a down economy this market segment is one that has grown however this market segment has grown at the cost of other market segments. So its simple math, this market in 2005 was 160,000 units (in the US alone) and is now larger then that. The total US market was something like 17,000,000 in 2005 and has shrunk from that year, are you still keeping up. The fact that this market segment isn't at 500,000 units a year or near what it was in the late 1960s becomes a moot point. Reason being is current trends have this market segment growing when you look at it from a year to year basis coming from the last 3 model years. Are you still keeping up? because I have repeated myself a bit in this post so that you can comprehend what is being stated. In a down market a market segment should decline, so the simple fact that this segment has not shrunk in a down market is a sign of health. In other words if this market was as healthy as it was in 2005 then this would indicate all things being equal that the Camaro would be selling at a rate of about 12,000 units a month and the Mustang at about 9,000 units a month. That would put the Camaro at 144,000 units a year and the Mustang at about 108,000 units a year. So to sum things up you are making some huge mistakes in your logic. 1. You assume that no external factors can impact this market segment (a down economy) 2. You assume that there is no cross shop (that with the Camaro and Challenger introduction you won't have potential Mustang buyers looking at the other options) 3. You assume that everyone here is just like you except instead of liking Ford and the Mustang we like Chevy and the Camaro (far from the truth). To conclude this I have figured that you are so biased and this hate for Chevy is so great that you just can't stand the fact that the Camaro is selling better then the Mustang. You instead would rather envision a dooms day the sky is falling scenario where because the Mustang isn't number 1 in sales then there is no way that this market segment can survive. At the end of the day consider this, the accountants at GM and Ford while they may be able to ruin a car company are really good with numbers. Believe me if this where remotely the case then there would be no new Camaro or Mustang in the works but there is. The pony car market is strong and thriving in the face of a bad economy and thriving mostly on the US market. Even better is the prospects of pursuing sales outside of North America to even further increase the sales potential of this market segment (though this will actually be at the cost of other vehicles in those respective markets). And believe me in the California market the Camaro is bringing tons of interest from non Camaro (actually non domestic car) people. |
10-05-2011, 10:05 PM | #80 |
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The Pill likes to talk about the "20% overproduction" but has forgotten that the Camaro is also sold in other parts of the World.
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10-06-2011, 03:30 AM | #81 |
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Yes, I'm not banned!!!
If it wasn't for the Camaro and Challenger, the Mustang's sales would have continued to fall after the all time low in 2009. The new cars brought around a new market, that being muscle cars and not sports coupes or pony cars, this attracted attention and I was hoping that it would have boosted sales and not seen a 2-4% decrease in the Camaro and Mustang. I completely blame this on the economy and the timing in which the Camaro was released, the total sales GM post every month is total worldwide Camaro sales, they are not broken down by country as they were a decade ago. What you see it what you get. The is obviously more room for the Camaro to make money in the future, but assuming that GM is making more money, with less sales and less time is silly. If the car was released in 2006, things would be different but.. this is the way it is... Ford flooded the market from 2005-2008 with over 500,000 Mustangs, flooded so badly that those sales actually helped the Mustang become a poor seller, along with the economy and competition. The damage was already done it that segment, anything that came after was pure profit after steps were taken to reduce production waste... limit advertising and limited production come to mind. Now, there are 3 different models flooding the market, as if 2009 was another 2005 and the process began all over again.. it shows in the trend that sales are falling similar to what the pony car did in 2005, but this time, it isn't just one factory, one manufacturer taking a loss... The losses are spread across 3 different companies and with the numbers that they are producing individually, are not enough to sustain 2 shifts (let alone 3). The class of car may be doing just as well but remember, none of these cars are sharing a profit or production cost. If it was 200,000 pony cars from one company then that is great, if it is split in 3... then the numbers become more alarming as individuals and steps must be taken to maximize profits when demand is down slightly and competition is eating at the market. Sales will continue to drop as more used cars are available and as I said before, there are still 47,000 brand new Camaro's sitting on dealership lots across the world. If this doesn't sound like a bad business decision, I can see why the American auto industry went bankrupt a few years ago... Look at 4th Gen production and sales vs. 5th Gen production and sales (Camaro only) and you will see that the numbers are almost identical at this point, the 5th Gen is behind in sales but has similar production rates. I agree that the Camaro has brought a lot of interest to the market, but interest doesn't pay the bills... sales and profit do.... |
10-06-2011, 11:01 AM | #82 | |
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10-06-2011, 01:07 PM | #83 |
Drives: 68 Camaro, 48 Chevy truck, 36 Chevy Join Date: Nov 2010
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For the hell of it (and because he bleeds almighty Oval blue), some more good news from AutoWorld, for the Ford loving Pill:
Focus wasn’t the only culprit in Ford’s poor car-sales results. The Taurus fullsize sedan turned in a dreadful performance, with deliveries plummeting 38.3% to 4,305 units. Erich Merkle, Ford’s newly appointed U.S. sales analyst, says the fullsize sedan segment is in decline as consumers move toward smaller cars. Ford Taurus sales in September off 38.3% vs. year-ago to 4,305. Merkle says the Taurus should receive a boost following the recent discontinuation of the Crown Victoria fullsize sedan, although that model almost entirely was relegated to fleet sales. “We’ve stopped production of Crown Victoria and we’re going to focus on the Taurus as our large car going forward,” he says. Crown Victoria sales in September were up 53.5% vs. year-ago to 3,013. Other poor-performing cars were the Fusion Hybrid and Mustang, which posted declines of 67.0% and 12.3%, respectively.
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06-20-2013, 02:47 PM | #84 | |
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If Camaro is, was still in the RED....Then how did GM pay back its government loan years ahead of time? They even admitted, it was the new Camaro that pulled GM thru the hard times and allowed them to pay off the loan early! I think, you, THE PILL, should take your mustang and yourself and go away. I'll take my Camaro over a mustang any day, in any kind of economy....the Camaro is a work of art, you just cant fix the ugly stang! |
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