Big H/C cars inside. PTV clearance question

[danhr]

I am disappointed in the texas speed 231/236 cam (on a 112 LSA). Myself and another 2010 Camaro have only put down 46x hp and 42x torque with very nice ported heads. I have a 236/247 cam laying around that was meant for my 418/L92 motor. I know it will perform a lot better than my current cam, but I am worried about PTV clearance, especially since my heads are milled .020". I know with the extra 5* of intake duration it will greatly reduce PTV clearance but I am thinking with the wider LSA it might offset that enough to be able to run it. With my current setup, I had roughly .100" PTV clearance.

I was wondering what you big H/C setup guys had and what clearances you had. I don't know if it's worth wasting my money on seals and head gaskets to rip apart the motor.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by danhr

I am disappointed in the texas speed 231/236 cam (on a 112 LSA). Myself and another 2010 Camaro have only put down 46x hp and 42x torque with very nice ported heads. I have a 236/247 cam laying around that was meant for my 418/L92 motor. I know it will perform a lot better than my current cam, but I am worried about PTV clearance, especially since my heads are milled .020". I know with the extra 5* of intake duration it will greatly reduce PTV clearance but I am thinking with the wider LSA it might offset that enough to be able to run it. With my current setup, I had roughly .100" PTV clearance.

I was wondering what you big H/C setup guys had and what clearances you had. I don't know if it's worth wasting my money on seals and head gaskets to rip apart the motor.

You should NOT be disappointed in those gains that's pretty damn impressive if you ask me, this is NO LS1 that started at 320 HP.

On another Note if the Heads didn't come from Texas speed you could have a mismatch heads and cam.

Good Job on the Cam Texas Speed.

You should post your before and after dyno graphs.

Ted.

[danhr]

The heads I have are from Rich at West Coast Cylinder Heads. They are known for being a very good head, on LS1Tech. They outflow the PRC L92's by a lot (which is what texas speed used to make their "500 rwhp package with the 231/236 cam").

My heads flow:

and they were milled .020" to maintain a stock 70 cc combustion chamber size.

My car made 400 rwhp and 405 rwtq with CAI/headers/exhaust/stock tune. I am disappointed that I only picked up 60 rwhp and 15 lbs of torque with the addition of:

231/236 cam
WCCH L92 heads
Ported throttle body
Ported Intake
Texas Speed Under Drive Pulley
Dyno tune from IPS Motorsports

Another local 2010 Camaro with the same cam (except on a 111 LSA) put down identical numbers.

Either way... Just looking to see what PTV clearance people are having

And those are SAE Corrected dynojet numbers.

[JANNETTYRACING]

The heads I have are from Rich at West Coast Cylinder Heads. They are known for being a very good head, on LS1Tech. They outflow the PRC L92's by a lot (which is what texas speed used to make their "500 rwhp package with the 231/236 cam").

and they were milled .020" to maintain a stock 70 cc combustion chamber size.

My car made 400 rwhp and 405 rwtq with CAI/headers/exhaust/stock tune. I am disappointed that I only picked up 60 rwhp and 15 lbs of torque with the addition of:

231/236 cam
WCCH L92 heads
Ported throttle body
Ported Intake
Texas Speed Under Drive Pulley
Dyno tune from IPS Motorsports

Another local 2010 Camaro with the same cam (except on a 111 LSA) put down identical numbers.

Either way... Just looking to see what PTV clearance people are having

And those are SAE Corrected dynojet numbers.

Typically when shooting for the ever so hard 500 RWHP, you need to raise compression, and use a cam with more duration.

Your making 465 RWHP if I read correctly and That is a Solid Number, I don't see you making much more with a bigger cam maybe 10 RWHP.

The Heads, Cam, and Underdrive pulley are the only mods that did anything.

I think you set your expectations too high for a stock compression LS3

Ted.

[Jason 98 TA]

We dyno tested a cam only car Friday that made right at 460rwhp without under drive pulley, and without ported heads. We didn't do the install on this car, but we did get to dyno tune it.

Gomer in Alabama just installed a 231/236 and PRC L92s made 504rwhp last week. Hope this helps.

Dyno sheet from cam only stock pulley car:

[Jason 98 TA]

You sure can go ahead and test that camshaft, I don't think I'd call it a lot better cam than what you have, it'll make a few peak hp & give up bottom end.

I'm amazed by how quick you are to say the camshafts so crappy & the heads are so much better than what we build, we ship out near 500rwhp packages all the time.

[danhr]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Typically when shooting for the ever so hard 500 RWHP, you need to raise compression, and use a came with more duration.

Your making 465 RWHP if I read correctly and That is a Solid Number, I don't see you making much more with a bigger cam maybe 10 RWHP.

The Heads, Cam, and Underdrive pulley are the only mods that did anything.

I think you set your expectations too high for a stock compression LS3

Ted.

Well first, I'd like to say thanks for hijacking my thread. I just asked what are some PTV clearance numbers for some of the big h/c guys. I have yet to see anything of that sort come from either of your posts.

There have been plenty of corvette LS3 cam only cars that have put over 500 rwhp, and quite a few cam only LS3 camaro guys put out equal to, if not better, numbers than my heads/cam. I have seen the heads perform countless times, but I have yet to see a texas speed 231/236 cam perform to the advertised numbers that texas speed has. They said that when they got "500 rwhp" on their car with the cam that the heads were unmilled, so they did not raise compression.

460 rwhp is a solid cam only number imo. It is a horrible heads/cam number though. Especially when texas speed advertises bigger numbers on their website. I have yet to see anyone else, besides texas speed, put out those kind of numbers with the 231/236 cam.

I obviously want more out of it and plan on putting a bigger cam in it. I have seen this exact cam put out 480 rwhp through a th400/9" (as well as running high 10's on motor in a 3800 lbs car and a 9.8 on a 200 shot), so I'm fairly confident it will get me to my goals. I was just curious if someone measured PTV clearance with a simliar cam on a milled head, so I can justify ripping the motor apart again.

I refuse to believe that gaining 60 hp and 15 lbs of torque with a cam, heads, tune (it had a bone stock factory tune in it on the baseline dyno), and under drive pulley is a "solid gain". Maybe to your standards it is, but to mine, it is not.

[danhr]

Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA

You sure can go ahead and test that camshaft, I don't think I'd call it a lot better cam than what you have, it'll make a few peak hp & give up bottom end.

I'm amazed by how quick you are to say the camshafts so crappy & the heads are so much better than what we build, we ship out near 500rwhp packages all the time.

heaven forbid if I want to try something different. I have called you guys three times, sent you dyno sheets, and build sheets, and the only thing you could tell me is to check push rod length, which I have done twice now. I originally went with the pushrod length that you guys recommended to me, and I have checked it twice and it came out the same, with a preload of .050. So either the tune is horribly off, or the heads are horrible mix-matched to the cam, or the cam just isn't performing to "my high stock compression ls3 expectations."

It is easier to swap to a cam (assuming it fits, which is why I started this thread to begin with, not to start a pissing match), then it is to swap to a different head.

I tried seeing if there was anything wrong, but came up with nothing. I am disappointed in the numbers, recieved your input, triple checked all the small details that I was told to double check, and still came up with the same. Obviously I am going to need something else to get my goal, and I apologize if it offends you if that means taking out your cam.

[Jason 98 TA]

Please don't take my response the wrong way, we're here to help & want you to make the 500rwhp range the other guys are making.

I get frustrated when the thread basically says the TSP cam sucks compared to this camshaft, and the heads suck compared to these heads.

There's been tons of great results from the 231/236 camshaft & PRC heads combo not just from TSP, but from across the country.

We've built lots of 500rwhp packages and I want to help in any way I can to get you there. I'll even make you a offer, I'll send you a set of the PRC L92/LS3 heads you can install & test. If they don't work you can send them back & I'll give you a full refund.

We're absolutely here to help 1000%. There's no way I want a customer out there thinking his TSP camshaft isn't doing what he expects.

If you want to try out the PRC heads give us a call. We've spent a lot of time developing specific combos for the LS3 cars. I'm confident we can get you much closer to that 490-500rwhp range.

[Jason 98 TA]

My advise is if you feel its the camshaft try swapping that first. After your done with that we can consider trying the PRC heads & going back to the 231/236 camshaft.

The 231/236 camshaft was designed to make good across the rpm power rather than just a peak #. I think you'll find the across the board power the 231/236 makes will be what you want to go back to.

Like I said we want to help.

[danhr]

Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA

Please don't take my response the wrong way, we're here to help & want you to make the 500rwhp range the other guys are making.

I get frustrated when the thread basically says the TSP cam sucks compared to this camshaft, and the heads suck compared to these heads.

There's been tons of great results from the 231/236 camshaft & PRC heads combo not just from TSP, but from across the country.

We've built lots of 500rwhp packages and I want to help in any way I can to get you there. I'll even make you a offer, I'll send you a set of the PRC L92/LS3 heads you can install & test. If they don't work you can send them back & I'll give you a full refund.

We're absolutely here to help 1000%. There's no way I want a customer out there thinking his TSP camshaft isn't doing what he expects.

If you want to try out the PRC heads give us a call. We've spent a lot of time developing specific combos for the LS3 cars. I'm confident we can get you much closer to that 490-500rwhp range.

I never said the 231/236 cam "sucked". Just that I was disappointed in the numbers. I figured if i put it on with a high flowing set of heads, that it should put down simliar numbers. If you actually check my build thread, I actually said I did like the cam (you can even check the last date that I edited the post, and see that I didn't go back and change it just now to not seem like a bad guy). It just didn't perform the way I wanted it to, being that it could be because it's on a 112 lsa instead of a 111, it isn't matched right to the heads, or the tune is horribly off.

I might take you up on the PRC deal. I actually have a friend that just got a set for his 2010 camaro with a tvs on it. His car is down for awhile. I'll see if I can talk him into letting me "have" his. If he lets me and they work, I'll buy him a new set.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by danhr

Well first, I'd like to say thanks for hijacking my thread. I just asked what are some PTV clearance numbers for some of the big h/c guys. I have yet to see anything of that sort come from either of your posts.

There have been plenty of corvette LS3 cam only cars that have put over 500 rwhp, and quite a few cam only LS3 camaro guys put out equal to, if not better, numbers than my heads/cam. I have seen the heads perform countless times, but I have yet to see a texas speed 231/236 cam perform to the advertised numbers that texas speed has. They said that when they got "500 rwhp" on their car with the cam that the heads were unmilled, so they did not raise compression.

460 rwhp is a solid cam only number imo. It is a horrible heads/cam number though. Especially when texas speed advertises bigger numbers on their website. I have yet to see anyone else, besides texas speed, put out those kind of numbers with the 231/236 cam.

I obviously want more out of it and plan on putting a bigger cam in it. I have seen this exact cam put out 480 rwhp through a th400/9" (as well as running high 10's on motor in a 3800 lbs car and a 9.8 on a 200 shot), so I'm fairly confident it will get me to my goals. I was just curious if someone measured PTV clearance with a simliar cam on a milled head, so I can justify ripping the motor apart again.

I refuse to believe that gaining 60 hp and 15 lbs of torque with a cam, heads, tune (it had a bone stock factory tune in it on the baseline dyno), and under drive pulley is a "solid gain". Maybe to your standards it is, but to mine, it is not.

Some Dynos are Loser than others, and this may have all to do with it.

I can only speak for my Dyno which I know is ON the Money, and we just don't see 500 NA power unless its a race car or a big cube engine.

Even my 360 inch 18 degree 14:1 compression small block only puts down 580 but goes 9.8s easy at 3400 lbs No NOS.

I still think your barking up the wrong tree.

Just trying to help.

Ted.

[Jason 98 TA]

You need to take time to make sure you get the right heads for the combo. We setup the heads specifically for the 231/236 camshaft. Trying on a set built for a blower would not be the right move.

I have several sets in stock, if you decide to try it we'd be happy to ship you a set out.

[danhr]

Originally Posted by Jason 98 TA

You need to take time to make sure you get the right heads for the combo. We setup the heads specifically for the 231/236 camshaft. Trying on a set built for a blower would not be the right move.

I have several sets in stock, if you decide to try it we'd be happy to ship you a set out.

The heads are not built for a blower, they aren't that far off. lol. I spoke with Rich (from WCCH) as well as you guys several times before I ordered everything. He knew exactly what cam I was running and where it peaked (I sent him the dyno sheet of your test car). We (Rich and I) were thinking of milling the heads even more to up the compression, but thought that PTV clearance maybe too close.

The only thing I have yet to rule out is the potential that the tune isn't on. I can send you the hp tuner's file for the tune that's in it now and any sort of datalogging that you want, or I can send it to Gomer? Oddly enough, he has actually tuned my 4th gen before, when I lived in nashville. If you guys don't see anything wrong, I guess I'll be ripping apart the heads again.