Hotchkis versus Pfadt Sway Bars

[Hopper]

Originally Posted by Hotchkis

Hi Avalnch - Seems like you've already made up your mind based on info in the forums, some of which came from less than neutral sources. Just to clarify - most OEM bars on high performance vehicles are made from hollow-tube high-strength steel. This is the case with the Z06, the SS, Porsches and others. We respect those who go with solid and could easily do so if we thought it was the way to go, but we choose hollow. Since we actually design/manufacture bars for OEs as well as the aftermarket, our parts undergo rigorous durability, performance and track testing.

We feel hollow is just better due to excellent strength and weight savings. Factory Camaro sway bars are hollow, and the bottom line is the necking down does not create a weaker point as others are erroneously claiming.

The welded on ends are fine. We like using the same material throughout the sway bar for maximum material consistency. Therefore, we forge our sway bar ends which is a complicated process involving a special furnace, custom tooling and machinery and a metalsmith. As long as sound engineering principals are followed either method works well.

We respect the Pfadt products because like us they use sound engineering and meaningful design. Can’t comment on some of the other brands mentioned in this thread because they seem to be perpetually out of stock and claim to be changing the design often. We read that their front bar will be four position adjustable on the next run. We prefer to determine, through track and street testing, the maximum sway bar rate for the front and then fine tune, adjust roll stiffness/ handling balance with the rear sway bar. The method always worked well on our race cars.

Bottom line: our parts are designed, track tested, and built for maximum durability, performance, ride comfort and simple installation. The track pack (Chassis Brace, Springs and Sways Bars) is a proven performer that works extremely well with fantastic handling and a ride that won't get old after a few weeks.

As an engineer and a former racer, I can attest to the quality built into both Pfadt and Hotchkis components. I have run both in the past and I can honestly say the difference to me wasn't much more than feel. At all levels, both performed well and do everything you would expect them to do for the price. Both are huge improvements over stock, but one design is bound to feel more comfortable to a driver and that will vary from driver to driver.

For me, the Hotchkis stuff felt better and inspired more confidence with better track times. I have friends who are the exact opposite and swear by Pfadt. On a different level, it's the same reason Hendrick can't put the 48 car's setup on the 24 car and expect Jeff to like it as much as Jimmie does and run as fast. Personal preferences come into play. Bottom line, you can't go wrong with either but, if you can, experience both first on another Camaro. You are bound to like one better.

Reading this post and others in the suspension threads on Camaro5, you can learn a lot about the big players who are competing for your business. I think a company shows it's true colors when they have the class to mention a competitor in a respectful manner while sharing the benefits of their own product. It shows a blend of confidence in their product with humility. Both the Pfadt and Hotchkis guys have been nothing but honest, informative and respectful. For me, that earns my business and recommendation.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Hopper

As an engineer and a former racer, I can attest to the quality built into both Pfadt and Hotchkis components. I have run both in the past and I can honestly say the difference to me wasn't much more than feel. At all levels, both performed well and do everything you would expect them to do for the price. Both are huge improvements over stock, but one design is bound to feel more comfortable to a driver and that will vary from driver to driver.

For me, the Hotchkis stuff felt better and inspired more confidence with better track times. I have friends who are the exact opposite and swear by Pfadt. On a different level, it's the same reason Hendrick can't put the 48 car's setup on the 24 car and expect Jeff to like it as much as Jimmie does and run as fast. Personal preferences come into play. Bottom line, you can't go wrong with either but, if you can, experience both first on another Camaro. You are bound to like one better.

Reading this post and others in the suspension threads on Camaro5, you can learn a lot about the big players who are competing for your business. I think a company shows it's true colors when they have the class to mention a competitor in a respectful manner while sharing the benefits of their own product. It shows a blend of confidence in their product with humility. Both the Pfadt and Hotchkis guys have been nothing but honest, informative and respectful. For me, that earns my business and recommendation.

Thanks for the comments, Hopper. You bring up an excellent point on it coming down to personal preference.

This is tangent, but I see you are from Danbury. Ever take a walk over to Highcroft? Just curious. Thanks!

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Hotchkis

Hi Avalnch - Seems like you've already made up your mind based on info in the forums, some of which came from less than neutral sources. Just to clarify - most OEM bars on high performance vehicles are made from hollow-tube high-strength steel. This is the case with the Z06, the SS, Porsches and others. We respect those who go with solid and could easily do so if we thought it was the way to go, but we choose hollow. Since we actually design/manufacture bars for OEs as well as the aftermarket, our parts undergo rigorous durability, performance and track testing.

We feel hollow is just better due to excellent strength and weight savings. Factory Camaro sway bars are hollow, and the bottom line is the necking down does not create a weaker point as others are erroneously claiming.

The welded on ends are fine. We like using the same material throughout the sway bar for maximum material consistency. Therefore, we forge our sway bar ends which is a complicated process involving a special furnace, custom tooling and machinery and a metalsmith. As long as sound engineering principals are followed either method works well.

We respect the Pfadt products because like us they use sound engineering and meaningful design. Can’t comment on some of the other brands mentioned in this thread because they seem to be perpetually out of stock and claim to be changing the design often. We read that their front bar will be four position adjustable on the next run. We prefer to determine, through track and street testing, the maximum sway bar rate for the front and then fine tune, adjust roll stiffness/ handling balance with the rear sway bar. The method always worked well on our race cars.

Bottom line: our parts are designed, track tested, and built for maximum durability, performance, ride comfort and simple installation. The track pack (Chassis Brace, Springs and Sways Bars) is a proven performer that works extremely well with fantastic handling and a ride that won't get old after a few weeks.

And we certainly appreciate the comments, Hotchkis. The feeling is mutual and thanks for keeping things professional.

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by axis

There, I fixed it for ya.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Tough crowd LOL

.... Hey, I was just half wrong, so does that mean I was half right?

I appreciate all the vendors saving the technical information for these threads, and the sales pitches in the For Sale section. You're all a welcome benefit to the site

[brtaus]

In reading this thread, as well as other threads about other aftermarket products, I have determined the difference for the "average" guy (read: I am not a racer on the track and have no idea what most of the technical stuff even means or how it applies to my car and me driving) is what kind of deal can I get on the product (since, to me, they are the same performance-wise) and which one I like the looks of better.

[Hopper]

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

Thanks for the comments, Hopper. You bring up an excellent point on it coming down to personal preference.

This is tangent, but I see you are from Danbury. Ever take a walk over to Highcroft? Just curious. Thanks!

Haven't been down to their shop yet, but would like to drop by sometime. I would spend all my free time at the track or bumming around race shops if I could, but then I wouldn't have a wife to come home to! They might run me out of the place if they found out I work for Chevy. Not to mention the grief I would get from the Corvette Racing guys if they caught me in an Acura shop.

[PfadtRacing]

Hopper, sent you a PM

[kga10734]

solid verses tubular, which is stronger?

I remember many years ago watching Mr. Wizard and he talked about this very thing. A solid bar took less pressure to bend then the tube of the same dia. Why, because the solid bar had but one point of resistance and the tube has 2 points of resistance. I believe that is why they make tube chassis and a roll cage is made out of steel tubing, for strength and weight savings.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by kga10734

solid verses tubular, which is stronger?

I remember many years ago watching Mr. Wizard and he talked about this very thing. A solid bar took less pressure to bend then the tube of the same dia. Why, because the solid bar had but one point of resistance and the tube has 2 points of resistance. I believe that is why they make tube chassis and a roll cage is made out of steel tubing, for strength and weight savings.

Hi kga10734, I get the point you are making, unfortunately it is just never that cut and dry. To say something is "stronger" than something else isn't pertinent in a general sense, unless specific values are given, and all assumptions are removed.

Everything is relative to the application (just like your roll cage example using tubing in lieu of bar), and in the instance of torsional stiffness, a hollow bar, OR solid bar, can both be used to achieve the exact same strength (in torsion) and roll-stiffness rate. The weights will be different, the diameters will be different as well, they may have other minor feature changes, but controlling for geometry, both bars can be engineered appropriately to achieve the desired effect on the vehicles handling.

[kga10734]

That's kinda what I figured after reading a lot of threads on this site. That's why I went with Pfadt. I personaly don't know anyone the has ever bent a sway bar. If the ones I'm putting on the car are bigger, stronger, and improve the handling over the stock bars, then I am happy with my purchase.

[hypurone]

Originally Posted by kga10734

I personally don't know anyone the has ever bent a sway bar.

Nope, not without hitting something....In aggressive "non-contact" driving, the end links are gonna go first and you are gonna know about that immediately!

To the OP:

For me it came down to a specific correction (understeer and the ability to set a "designed-in" neutral position with their bars) that I was looking for. Aaron (Pfadt) took my phone call and answered ALL my technical questions (I was a paid master ASE tech for 20 years w/ 10 undercar) without a thought for the time he was spending with me.

I have the Pfadt bars and they work as stated. Body roll is gone, car is neutral at the limit, this is good. But be forewarned that improving this area will only serve to highlight and aggravate the deficiencies of the stock shocks\springs, this is bad!! But then that is what coil-overs are for! (if I can only get me hands on them )

[Agent Atomic Orange]

Originally Posted by Avalnch

Can I get some Forum expert opinions?

I was leaning towards the Hotchkis set because their complete package includes that sweet subframe chassis bracket. However, since reading some posts (the one in particular that explains how tubular bars are not as strong and prone to weak points at the bends), I'm having second thoughts.

Can the heavy weights on this forum weigh in on my observations/assumptions about these two sway bars and let me know if they are correct?
Bar Geometry:
The Hotchkis front bar replicates the stock bar (it needs to be re-installed under between the engine and chassis). The Pfadt bar is not as convoluted and is installed in a more traditional sense. My intuition tells me that the bar with fewer bends will be more stable and stronger. Minus one for Hotchkis.

Bar Type (hollow vs solid):
My initial impression of the Hotchkis bar was that hollow would offer weight savings, but (as was pointed out in another thread) if it only saves <10 lbs, then how much can this matter? Also, as I watched and re-watched the Hotchkis install video, I notice that the major bends in their bar indeed seems to be pinched down and oval (like a poorly made exhaust bend). Even with properly heat treated bending, the bar at this point would not offer the same stability and strength. Minus one for Hotchkis.

Bar End:
The Pfadt bar shows a welded bar end whereas the Hotchkis is a pressed end. Not entirely certain which is better (if there is a difference). But from reading the forum, it sounds like the welded bar end is the preferred choice. Minus one for Hotchkis.

Well, there you have it, no points for the Hotchkis bars (at least the front one).

Please make your comments and correct my assumptions if they are erroneous.

Thanks

So when are the heavy weights going to chime in? (jkd) I have the
Hotchkis sway bars and I am 100% happy with them.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by Agent Atomic Orange

So when are the heavy weights going to chime in? (jkd) I have the
Hotchkis sway bars and I am 100% happy with them.

Installing any of the sway bars offered will make improvements that you can feel. No questions about it. However, that is where things change.

Here is a thread that I wrote that will probably give you way more info than you ever wanted to know about sway bars and the Camaro.

I will tell you the Pedders bars will give you the best balance possible for body role control, understeer reduction, and still keep the novice driver and the excpoert driver in safe conditions.

Here is the thread

Understanding Sway Bars

thanks
mike
dms

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by PQ

Ya but one is hollowier than the other.