Hotchkis versus Pfadt Sway Bars

[Xtreme Innovations & Fab]

Hi Avalnch, I know there are alot of opinions already on this subject ,but I can tell you from being an experienced chassis builder and fabricator, majority of all the strongest sway bars,anti-roll bars or what ever you want to call it , are a hollow tube.
What it comes down to is how much do you want to spend and what will work for your uses, for example : I have a 3500lb chevelle that makes 2200hp ,this uses a 22in.long by 2in. dia. This anti roll bar is heat treated and costs $850 for the bar alone .
So keep in mind if one product weighs more than the other , it doesnt make it stronger, I could give you all kinds of specs on these products , but at end of the day, does the majority of people know what that means, the answer is no.. so it comes down to trusting the person or business that they will give you the correct product to best suit your needs. If still looking ,give us a call.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by Xtreme Innovations & Fab

Hi Avalnch, I know there are alot of opinions already on this subject ,but I can tell you from being an experienced chassis builder and fabricator, majority of all the strongest sway bars,anti-roll bars or what ever you want to call it , are a hollow tube.
What it comes down to is how much do you want to spend and what will work for your uses, for example : I have a 3500lb chevelle that makes 2200hp ,this uses a 22in.long by 2in. dia. This anti roll bar is heat treated and costs $850 for the bar alone .
So keep in mind if one product weighs more than the other , it doesnt make it stronger, I could give you all kinds of specs on these products , but at end of the day, does the majority of people know what that means, the answer is no.. so it comes down to trusting the person or business that they will give you the correct product to best suit your needs. If still looking ,give us a call.

Not denying your expertise in any way, but to say that all hollow bars are stronger is totally not true. You take a 30mm bar, one solid and one hollow, and the hollow wall thickness is say .180, which is pretty common, the solid bar will be anywheres from 30% to 50% stronger, depending on how much deflection is in the hollow tube at the bends. There is simple match here, and no mystery.

mike
dms

[Xtreme Innovations & Fab]

Originally Posted by dms

Not denying your expertise in any way, but to say that all hollow bars are stronger is totally not true. You take a 30mm bar, one solid and one hollow, and the hollow wall thickness is say .180, which is pretty common, the solid bar will be anywheres from 30% to 50% stronger, depending on how much deflection is in the hollow tube at the bends. There is simple match here, and no mystery.

mike
dms

I dont know where you got, I said all hollow bars are stronger , I stated that majority of the bars are stronger . It comes down to matching the correct wall thickness and o.d. of the tube , then if you want to get more technical lets talk about heat treatmeats . I beat there isnt one company on this site thats doing heat treatments on there sway bars , reason why , extra cost to the consumer .

My point was just to inform consumers that just because its heavier doesnt mean its stronger, in the world of cars and racing why would you want to keep adding usless weight to get the same results ..

For example: why do they gundrill an axle shaft-- Its not to make it look pretty, its because when you get to a certain size and its heat treated correctly the center material then becomes usless dead weight , when heat treating takes place it will only penetriate a certain % into the steel and thats why the interior steel is usless.

Hopefully this helpfull info.

[JusticePete]

As everyone can see the suspension business is highly competitive. It looks like we are all trying to be respectful while standing our ground in the forum. I am not pointing any fingers or suggesting anyone has done anything wrong. Some times I just feel like we are alienating the very people we want to develop a relationship with, the people that pay our bills, our customers and clients. I am as guilty as any. I'll try to keep my own lecture in mind.

Isn't the weather great today?

[2010SSRSM6]

Each of the venders here makes a much improved product over stock. Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with either of the "Heavyweights" that are here on the fourm. They wouldn't be where they are if their products weren't top notch and considered a worthy investment. The decision is never easy, so good luck.

I've seen cars with each of the "Big 3" and have to say they all perform very well but my favorite is my favorite due to the hospitality they showed at SEMA last year, plus, I think their product is just a smidge better (in my non-suspension savvy world) than the others.

[RedJewel2SS]

i chose to use the Pfadt sport suspension on my car, mainly for the ride height difference. the sway bars were an added bonus.

my car is not being built for an autocross, it is not a daily driver; just a weekend warrior and maybe one or two passes a year at the local strip.

i researched all 4 major brands, Eibach, Hotchkis, Pfadt, and Pedder's

from what i found i rank them like this:

for the All-Out Racer:
Pedder's
Pfadt
Hotchkis
Eibach

for the daily driver w/ no racing in mind:
Pfadt
Pedder's
Hotchkis
Eibach

Remember this is just my own opinion. main reason i put Pedder's first for the advid race enthusiast is b/c they have put together at least a dozen different suspension packages ranging from basic street all the way to professional autocross. Pedder's makes an outstanding product, but the reason i ranked them 2nd for someone with a daily driver that never will be raced is because of cost.

with that said the reson i picked Pfadt for my suspension was for a very high quality product that was more cost effective for ME.

i like Hotchkis suspension. my 98 dakota R/T has their TVS system. but when i compared them to the Pfadt and Pedder's, i felt Pfadt won for my application. their chassis brace is a great idea, but i have 3 inch exhaust that i had to get spacers and a lower clearanced tunnel brace for and i just know their chassis brace wouldn't fit with my exhaust.

the reason i ranked Eibach last was mainly because i have heard stories about how their drop springs are too "soft" and the cars bottom out a lot easier. not to bad mouth them any cuz i know it is not true but i have had people tell me it was like Eibach took the stock spring, cut an inch off then resold it to you.

remember this was just a little of my opinion from the research i did when i was choosing my suspension. it was a very hard decision, but when it came down to how much money i could spare for what i wanted, Pfadt won in a close race and i can't be happier with the results!

there are a lot of variables to take account for when choosing your suspension. for me it was getting the right stance, the handling was just an added benefit. for you it might be the opposite

[calbert1999]

I chose the complete Hotchkis system, and I have an upgraded 3" completely new exhaust system as well. The chassis brace included spacers too.
Professionally, installed and the price was really good for front and rear end links, front and rear sway bars, chassis brace, springs, and strut brace. All for $1600 US. Beat that.

[comm54]

Great Information!!!

We have the Hotchkis Track Pack and are VERY Happy!!! We were lucky enough to drive our car on a road course before and after, There Is a HUGE difference. My wife drives the car to work daily and enjoys a firm but comfortable ride. I was also able to run on another road course against other stock Camaro's and I had a Completely Unfair advantage in every corner on the track. My wife kept saying how much more confident she felt and her lap times backed that up! The Track Pack IS a Total Vehicle System and really allows you to use the horsepower of the Camaro!!!

[Hotchkis]

Originally Posted by Avalnch

Can I get some Forum expert opinions?

I was leaning towards the Hotchkis set because their complete package includes that sweet subframe chassis bracket. However, since reading some posts (the one in particular that explains how tubular bars are not as strong and prone to weak points at the bends), I'm having second thoughts.

Can the heavy weights on this forum weigh in on my observations/assumptions about these two sway bars and let me know if they are correct?

Bar Geometry:
The Hotchkis front bar replicates the stock bar (it needs to be re-installed under between the engine and chassis). The Pfadt bar is not as convoluted and is installed in a more traditional sense. My intuition tells me that the bar with fewer bends will be more stable and stronger. Minus one for Hotchkis.

Bar Type (hollow vs solid):
My initial impression of the Hotchkis bar was that hollow would offer weight savings, but (as was pointed out in another thread) if it only saves <10 lbs, then how much can this matter? Also, as I watched and re-watched the Hotchkis install video, I notice that the major bends in their bar indeed seems to be pinched down and oval (like a poorly made exhaust bend). Even with properly heat treated bending, the bar at this point would not offer the same stability and strength. Minus one for Hotchkis.

Bar End:
The Pfadt bar shows a welded bar end whereas the Hotchkis is a pressed end. Not entirely certain which is better (if there is a difference). But from reading the forum, it sounds like the welded bar end is the preferred choice. Minus one for Hotchkis.

Well, there you have it, no points for the Hotchkis bars (at least the front one).

Please make your comments and correct my assumptions if they are erroneous.

Thanks

Hi Avalnch -

There have been quite a few replies already, but since you specifically ask about the Hotchkis products, we'd like to chime in.

It seems that choosing swaybars, hollow vs solid, made in the USA vs foreign parts, etc. is an ongoing debate. At Hotchkis, we believe grudge matches belong on the racetrack, not in the forums, and we are thrilled that there are so many options for Camaro enthusiasts to choose from. Having choices is good for the public and it's good for the aftermarket, so we're just here to help you make informed choices.

Before getting into hollow vs solid, I'll discuss fitment. At Hotchkis, we know many of you drive your cars daily, let your spouses or children drive and generally use the vehicles like real cars. The reason Hotchkis went with the original position for the sway bar is to maximize ground clearance. Theoretically simpler is better, but we've done some extreme testing and we're confident that anyone driving violently enough to break one of our bars will have bigger problems than a damaged suspension part!


Hollow vs Solid

We get asked this question quite often. Right off the bat, let's clear something up: just about every major new high performance sports car on the market uses tubular sway bars. That includes the ZR-1, Porsche GT3, Viper ACR, Mustang GT500 and Ferraris and more. The OEMs could certainly afford to use whatever process they wanted, and they choose tubular bars because they offer the best balance of strength, performance and light weight. That's why we use the same process. We could make solid bars if we chose to, it's a much less expensive process, but we use a CNC bender and high-strength domestic steel because it works. We can all agree that weight is the enemy in all things concerning automotive efficiency. Why drag around a extra heavy bar when a lightweight, efficient tube will work even better? It's true that the process of designing optimally balanced hollow sway bars is more expensive then bending up a solid iron bar, but our 2000 hours of testing over the last 15 years has shown the benefits.

Sway bars work off of torsional force (twisting motion). Therefore, the material in the center of a solid bar plays little role in the resistance of torsional force. With this in mind, we have eliminated some of the center material and also moved some to the outside of the tube, where it is most effective. In turn, this produces a sway bar that is lighter in weight and just as stiff, if not stiffer than solid. For example, a 1'3/8" hollow bar is equivalent to a 1'1/4" solid. But the 1'3/8" hollow bar is 6% stiffer and 43% lighter than the 1'1/4" solid. “

Solid bar aficionados point to stress levels. Yes, hollow bars tend to have more stress then solid ones, but to what degree? As an analogy, what if hydroformed chassis frames were solid hunks of metal instead of hollow? Sure, they would be able to endure a lot more stress, but why would they need to? We design our bars to have enough twist resistance and still be more than durable without all the weight of a comparable solid unit.

Equations

There are many ways of designing products. Basic stabilizer bar equations are the first step for us at Hotchkis, but it does not end there. We model all of our stabilizer bars in CAD and use FEA (Finite Element Analysis) to determine deflections values. FEA allows us to obtain more accurate bar rates since it takes into account the entire shape of the bar.

Tube Bending

Speaking of bar shapes, our bars are CNC bent with tight tolerances. With dealing with larger bend radii, the tube bend does distort slightly. The overall diameter DOES NOT reduce or shrink as it bends. Our tests have shown negligible differences in rate and durability due to this phenomenon. Instead, the tube elongates vertically very slightly giving more strength to the lever arm.

Real Durability Testing

All the formulas in the world won't replace real world testing. We have a lot of experience with stabilizer bar fatigue/cycle testing. Before we release a new product, we contact an independent testing laboratory to conduct extensive fatigue/cycle testing. This involves applying a load on a stabilizer bar in the same manner as if it were in the vehicle for a certain amount of cycles. Deflections up to a punishing 2-3 inches in each direction with 100,000 cycles are not uncommon.. These tests allow us to determine the durability of a variety of diameters and wall thicknesses. This helps us decide on the best tube material for a given application. Actual bench testing also allows us to verify our results from FEA.

Lab testing is still not enough for us, we are regular visitors to local tracks and races where we put our cars through real life track testing. After all, a lab test won't tell you if you will be comfortable in your car, and we know that most of our customers plan on both street and track use.



The Bottom Line

Hotchkis has been designing, developing, and manufacturing suspension parts in the U.S. using high quality domestic steel for 15 years. We are constantly reviewing our products and processes. If we find something new that yields better results, you can be sure we'll start work on it immediately. Our goal is to design high quality affordable products that you can bolt on the day you receive them and start enjoying your car.

Hope this helps, and please call us with any questions you might have.

[M6HuggerSS]

great thread guys...

some really good info in this one...
and as stated above, well done to the sponsers for keeping negative comments
out of this forum... no need for product bashing...
just explain what YOU offer, and let the buyers make there choice.

but its obviousley a win,win for us, as we have several good products to choose from.

[M6HuggerSS]

Originally Posted by Info@PeddersUSA.com

Installing any of the sway bars offered will make improvements that you can feel. No questions about it. However, that is where things change.

Here is a thread that I wrote that will probably give you way more info than you ever wanted to know about sway bars and the Camaro.

I will tell you the Pedders bars will give you the best balance possible for body role control, understeer reduction, and still keep the novice driver and the excpoert driver in safe conditions.

Here is the thread

Understanding Sway Bars

thanks
mike
dms

looks like a dead link.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by M6HuggerSS

looks like a dead link.

Hmmm, try this one: Understanding Sway Bars

[Avalnch]

OK, now that I'm seriously about upgrading the suspension, I've expanded my search to the four major sway bar brands that represent themselves on this forum. Along with new struts/springs (aka coil overs which will need its own post), sway bars is equally important in improving the suspension performance of any vehicle. I've compile a side by side comparison of the different sway bars here. The info is directly off each vendors' websites, so there's no guess what's what.

SWAY BAR COMPARE.doc


The comparison is only of the "sport" sway bars. I won't be racing the car enough to warrant spending over a grand for a set of full out bars.

I tried to eye-ball the stock bars and they look to be about 7/8" front and 15/16" rear (using a tape measure). What the deal with that? The front OE bar is smaller than the rear?!?

I'm over the hollow vs solid debate. My friend's ZR1 has hollow bars and he swears by them for the weight savings. I'm OK either way since I have more HP than I know what to do with (which is a very good thing). ^_^

Can anyone fill in the missing info on the Pedders and Pfadt bars? They are not published on their websites. Also, what are the bar weights? I've left a column empty for that info even though I just said above that "it doesn't matter".

Right now, based on the info at hand, I'm leaning towards the Hotchkis bars because of their stated rear stiffness. I was looking forward to the Pedders bars because they included heavier adjustable endlinks, but the required drilling has made me reconsider.

One major question regarding the adjustable aftermarket sway bars is how well the OEM endlinks will hold up with the bars set at full stiffness? Some expert advice is needed here, please. I have no experience with the Camaro's new style endlinks.

I think I will finally end up with a mix of various components from everyone since no one vendor has everything that I'm after. I'm looking forward to all the wrenching this winter. Just wish I had the foresight to install a hoist in my garage. *sigh*

[speeD3m0n2010]

If you are worried about weight saving, starting on sway bars is probably not the best place to start. Hollow vice solid, grab both types of pipes and bend. Tell me which one bends the fastest and has metal fatigue. Unless your vehicle and its componets operate outside the laws of physics, if it does, I'll just keep quiet. OR...the hollow sway bars are made out of magic metal. NOT a Sponsor, just a Consumer putting in my 10 cents in here. I have one problem with my aftermarket suspension, I never had an issue to complain about.