Looking for a Reputable Shop to Fix my 416 Stroker Oil Burner - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Retro69 · 01-18-2018, 05:51 PM

The time has come that I have to fix my 416 stroker that burns a quart of oil every 500 miles and has ever since the ERL short block went in. It also throws occasional P0171/P0174 lean codes. I cannot find any vacuum leaks and looking at an Hp Tuners scan it looks like both o2 sensors have good voltage swing. I'm convinced the problem is too much blowby which has been the case since I got the new shortblock. I have a catch can but still end up with oil in the intake tube, on occasion, even drips out of the air filter.

Here's some history on how this all came down if you are interested.. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379648

I'm located in northern Utah so I'm prepared to go out of state if necessary but I don't know who to trust. JDP Motorsports is not an option so I would appreciate any suggestions. I need someone who won't leave me holding the bag again as I can't afford to put too much more money into the car before I just decide to cut my losses and sell it.

hou30guy · 01-18-2018, 09:16 PM

Someone must have gapped ur rings wrong

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hammdo · 01-18-2018, 11:37 PM

I’d do a leak down test first, then inspect the valve seals. Simple things first. That is a lot of oil in 500 miles. I assume you are NA?

-Don

Retro69 · 01-19-2018, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hammdo

I’d do a leak down test first, then inspect the valve seals. Simple things first. That is a lot of oil in 500 miles. I assume you are NA?

-Don

I spent the first year working with the shop who was coordinating with ERL and we did a whole bunch of this kind of stuff trying to find out what was causing the oil consumption. Leak down test results were not good. ERL had me run some Valvoline 30w dino oil with some Risoline and drive it hard to try to get the rings to seat but that did not help. And, yes, NA.

christianchevell · 01-20-2018, 08:57 AM

I do know the block has to be done up right and their are plugs that have to be right and if a shop does not know can screw that up. I broke my block in with BR30 the switched to vr1 for a few thousand then off with ls30 until today. Back of the block is I know a important plug area, you could ask Jerry at SAG performance group/custom engine supply he is the machinist who did my 428 and maybe he could explain it, I made sure Everything was done up right before assembly when I paid 5 grand for my stroker short block. good luck. Frankly I use Tommy Wong in Vancouver at Wongs performance engineering maybe he could recommend someone......hes on face book serious brainiac.....like friggin rocket scientist with two electrical engineering degrees.

Retro69 · 01-20-2018, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christianchevell

I do know the block has to be done up right and their are plugs that have to be right and if a shop does not know can screw that up. I broke my block in with BR30 the switched to vr1 for a few thousand then off with ls30 until today. Back of the block is I know a important plug area, you could ask Jerry at SAG performance group/custom engine supply he is the machinist who did my 428 and maybe he could explain it, I made sure Everything was done up right before assembly when I paid 5 grand for my stroker short block. good luck. Frankly I use Tommy Wong in Vancouver at Wongs performance engineering maybe he could recommend someone......hes on face book serious brainiac.....like friggin rocket scientist with two electrical engineering degrees.

Thanks for the info!

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Elite Engineering · 01-20-2018, 01:09 PM

Can you post the can your using and how it is routed? Our E2-X dual valve with cleanside will deal with your issue as far as properly evacuating and preventing oil ingestion, but you have a deeper issue as other have mentioned. Ring end gap excessive will cause this, but not having proper full time crankcase evacuation will also cause piston "ring flutter"that allows for more blow-by and oil issues.

Let us know more.

Thanks!

Retro69 · 01-20-2018, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Can you post the can your using and how it is routed? Our E2-X dual valve with cleanside will deal with your issue as far as properly evacuating and preventing oil ingestion, but you have a deeper issue as other have mentioned. Ring end gap excessive will cause this, but not having proper full time crankcase evacuation will also cause piston "ring flutter"that allows for more blow-by and oil issues.

Let us know more.

Thanks!

It’s an RX catch can. Vacuum side (PCV valve) is connect below the throttle body, other side to the driver’s side rocker cover fitting on the firewall end.

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JerTM · 01-20-2018, 03:09 PM

Just curious why JDP isn't an option. PM me if you don't want to say it publicly. Inquiring Utahn minds want to know haha

Russell James · 01-20-2018, 09:08 PM

You need a good performance machine shop, and a machinist that knows his sht with bore/honing/piston/ring fit...

It's not the oil plugs. You'd have no oil pressure if any plugs left out.

If you are convinced it's the bore/ring seal from a bad leak down test... the short block is just going to have to be in the hands of a good performance machinist.

Go buy a fish scale. Pull the pistons and rods out, find out the brand of rings you have. The second ring is key to oil control, make sure it's not something stupid like all the second rings were installed upside down - I've seen that. The leading tapered edge of the 2nd ring needs to be down. That 2nd ring squeegees down the oil. Or something even stupider, all the ring gaps lined up - I've seen that too.

Once you confirm the rings are installed correctly on the piston... correct ring in the correct groove, correctly oriented upside up. Oil control ring assembled correctly... That second ring has to scrape the cylinder... upside down it will float right over the oil film. Now that you've confirmed correct ring installation... get your ring compressor and fish scale out.

Lightly oil the cylinders, install the pistons upside down in the bores about half way down. Now use the fish scale pulling up on the rods watching he scale. You are measuring drag as it is sliding. Not the break away spike, but the pull pounds it takes to pull that piston up the cylinder. Light tension rings may have 10/11/12 ish lbs, real heavy tension rings might get above 15 lbs pull tension. If you are in that 10-12 lb range, nice ring tension. 8/9ish and below... something is screwed up.

If you are pulling those pistons up, and there is next to no pull drag...something is screwed up. Like only a couple lbs of pull pressure...ring tension is way too low. I looked at an oil burner once, nobody could figure it out, said it looked perfect on disassembly. I put a piston upside down in the bore, and it practically slid down by itself...hardly any ring tension. Wrong ring part # was used for the finish hone dimension.

Also need to put the rings in the bore by themselves to check end gap.

But that fish scale test on upside down pistons is a good one to tell you the reality of the ring drag.

Other basics need to be checked, like snap gauging the bores and seeing what finish bore dia the cylinders turned out after boring/honing.

Burning that much oil, a good machinist will find something. Usually something screwy like ring gaps lined up, wrong rings, rings installed upside down, no tension...

That little instruction sheet that comes with new rings is like gold. Some people like to throw the instructions away, and that's how the big screw ups happen.

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-4...ee-horsepower/

Retro69 · 01-21-2018, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell James

You need a good performance machine shop, and a machinist that knows his sht with bore/honing/piston/ring fit...

It's not the oil plugs. You'd have no oil pressure if any plugs left out.

If you are convinced it's the bore/ring seal from a bad leak down test... the short block is just going to have to be in the hands of a good performance machinist.

Go buy a fish scale. Pull the pistons and rods out, find out the brand of rings you have. The second ring is key to oil control, make sure it's not something stupid like all the second rings were installed upside down - I've seen that. The leading tapered edge of the 2nd ring needs to be down. That 2nd ring squeegees down the oil. Or something even stupider, all the ring gaps lined up - I've seen that too.

Once you confirm the rings are installed correctly on the piston... correct ring in the correct groove, correctly oriented upside up. Oil control ring assembled correctly... That second ring has to scrape the cylinder... upside down it will float right over the oil film. Now that you've confirmed correct ring installation... get your ring compressor and fish scale out.

Lightly oil the cylinders, install the pistons upside down in the bores about half way down. Now use the fish scale pulling up on the rods watching he scale. You are measuring drag as it is sliding. Not the break away spike, but the pull pounds it takes to pull that piston up the cylinder. Light tension rings may have 10/11/12 ish lbs, real heavy tension rings might get above 15 lbs pull tension. If you are in that 10-12 lb range, nice ring tension. 8/9ish and below... something is screwed up.

If you are pulling those pistons up, and there is next to no pull drag...something is screwed up. Like only a couple lbs of pull pressure...ring tension is way too low. I looked at an oil burner once, nobody could figure it out, said it looked perfect on disassembly. I put a piston upside down in the bore, and it practically slid down by itself...hardly any ring tension. Wrong ring part # was used for the finish hone dimension.

Also need to put the rings in the bore by themselves to check end gap.

But that fish scale test on upside down pistons is a good one to tell you the reality of the ring drag.

Other basics need to be checked, like snap gauging the bores and seeing what finish bore dia the cylinders turned out after boring/honing.

Burning that much oil, a good machinist will find something. Usually something screwy like ring gaps lined up, wrong rings, rings installed upside down, no tension...

That little instruction sheet that comes with new rings is like gold. Some people like to throw the instructions away, and that's how the big screw ups happen.

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-4...ee-horsepower/

Interesting article. Thanks!

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Russell James · 01-21-2018, 02:07 PM

That Reher Morrison site and their tech articles are a treasure chest of engine building info. It's nice that they share their knowledge.

Retro69 · 01-22-2018, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerTM

Just curious why JDP isn't an option. PM me if you don't want to say it publicly. Inquiring Utahn minds want to know haha

PM sent.

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Retro69 · 01-23-2018, 05:52 PM

So no one can recommend a reputable shop that can fix my car?

01-18-2018, 05:51 PM	#1
Retro69 Drives: 2018 Camaro ZL1 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Morgan, UT Posts: 1,359	Looking for a Reputable Shop to Fix my 416 Stroker Oil Burner The time has come that I have to fix my 416 stroker that burns a quart of oil every 500 miles and has ever since the ERL short block went in. It also throws occasional P0171/P0174 lean codes. I cannot find any vacuum leaks and looking at an Hp Tuners scan it looks like both o2 sensors have good voltage swing. I'm convinced the problem is too much blowby which has been the case since I got the new shortblock. I have a catch can but still end up with oil in the intake tube, on occasion, even drips out of the air filter. Here's some history on how this all came down if you are interested.. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379648 I'm located in northern Utah so I'm prepared to go out of state if necessary but I don't know who to trust. JDP Motorsports is not an option so I would appreciate any suggestions. I need someone who won't leave me holding the bag again as I can't afford to put too much more money into the car before I just decide to cut my losses and sell it. __________________

01-18-2018, 11:37 PM	#3
hammdo 'It's an experiment' Drives: [COTW 2/09/15] '11 GPI LSA SC Z/LE Join Date: May 2014 Location: Dallas TX Posts: 8,694 View My Garage	I’d do a leak down test first, then inspect the valve seals. Simple things first. That is a lot of oil in 500 miles. I assume you are NA? -Don __________________ 747 RWHP 794 RWTQ "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races." - Enzo Ferrari See My Build: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385577 Last edited by hammdo; 01-19-2018 at 12:05 AM.

01-20-2018, 08:57 AM	#5
christianchevell old school chevy rodder Drives: 2013 2SS/RS Manual,DM exhaust,CRT Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,587 View My Garage	I do know the block has to be done up right and their are plugs that have to be right and if a shop does not know can screw that up. I broke my block in with BR30 the switched to vr1 for a few thousand then off with ls30 until today. Back of the block is I know a important plug area, you could ask Jerry at SAG performance group/custom engine supply he is the machinist who did my 428 and maybe he could explain it, I made sure Everything was done up right before assembly when I paid 5 grand for my stroker short block. good luck. Frankly I use Tommy Wong in Vancouver at Wongs performance engineering maybe he could recommend someone......hes on face book serious brainiac.....like friggin rocket scientist with two electrical engineering degrees. __________________ 2021 Wild Cherry ZL1 A10, Sunroof, Data, Carbon, Nav, RotoFab Dry CAI, Elite x2, Borla ATK, Driveshaft shop

01-20-2018, 09:08 PM	#10
Russell James Drives: '15 SS 1LE, '69 Z28 drag car Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mich Posts: 4,482	You need a good performance machine shop, and a machinist that knows his sht with bore/honing/piston/ring fit... It's not the oil plugs. You'd have no oil pressure if any plugs left out. If you are convinced it's the bore/ring seal from a bad leak down test... the short block is just going to have to be in the hands of a good performance machinist. Go buy a fish scale. Pull the pistons and rods out, find out the brand of rings you have. The second ring is key to oil control, make sure it's not something stupid like all the second rings were installed upside down - I've seen that. The leading tapered edge of the 2nd ring needs to be down. That 2nd ring squeegees down the oil. Or something even stupider, all the ring gaps lined up - I've seen that too. Once you confirm the rings are installed correctly on the piston... correct ring in the correct groove, correctly oriented upside up. Oil control ring assembled correctly... That second ring has to scrape the cylinder... upside down it will float right over the oil film. Now that you've confirmed correct ring installation... get your ring compressor and fish scale out. Lightly oil the cylinders, install the pistons upside down in the bores about half way down. Now use the fish scale pulling up on the rods watching he scale. You are measuring drag as it is sliding. Not the break away spike, but the pull pounds it takes to pull that piston up the cylinder. Light tension rings may have 10/11/12 ish lbs, real heavy tension rings might get above 15 lbs pull tension. If you are in that 10-12 lb range, nice ring tension. 8/9ish and below... something is screwed up. If you are pulling those pistons up, and there is next to no pull drag...something is screwed up. Like only a couple lbs of pull pressure...ring tension is way too low. I looked at an oil burner once, nobody could figure it out, said it looked perfect on disassembly. I put a piston upside down in the bore, and it practically slid down by itself...hardly any ring tension. Wrong ring part # was used for the finish hone dimension. Also need to put the rings in the bore by themselves to check end gap. But that fish scale test on upside down pistons is a good one to tell you the reality of the ring drag. Other basics need to be checked, like snap gauging the bores and seeing what finish bore dia the cylinders turned out after boring/honing. Burning that much oil, a good machinist will find something. Usually something screwy like ring gaps lined up, wrong rings, rings installed upside down, no tension... That little instruction sheet that comes with new rings is like gold. Some people like to throw the instructions away, and that's how the big screw ups happen. http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-4...ee-horsepower/ Last edited by Russell James; 01-20-2018 at 09:30 PM.

01-23-2018, 05:52 PM	#14
Retro69 Drives: 2018 Camaro ZL1 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Morgan, UT Posts: 1,359	So no one can recommend a reputable shop that can fix my car? __________________

01-18-2018, 09:16 PM	#2
hou30guy Drives: 2011 convertible 2ss/rs Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Houston Posts: 971	Someone must have gapped ur rings wrong Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

01-20-2018, 01:09 PM	#7
Elite Engineering Drives: 2010 Camaro Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Denver Posts: 1,382	Can you post the can your using and how it is routed? Our E2-X dual valve with cleanside will deal with your issue as far as properly evacuating and preventing oil ingestion, but you have a deeper issue as other have mentioned. Ring end gap excessive will cause this, but not having proper full time crankcase evacuation will also cause piston "ring flutter"that allows for more blow-by and oil issues. Let us know more. Thanks!

01-20-2018, 03:09 PM	#9
JerTM Drives: 2011 2SS/RS M6 Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Utah Posts: 1,940	Just curious why JDP isn't an option. PM me if you don't want to say it publicly. Inquiring Utahn minds want to know haha

01-21-2018, 02:07 PM	#12
Russell James Drives: '15 SS 1LE, '69 Z28 drag car Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mich Posts: 4,482	That Reher Morrison site and their tech articles are a treasure chest of engine building info. It's nice that they share their knowledge.