Z/28: Pay for the performance.

[sen10l]

This is an interesting topic. How has Chevy responded historically? Has the Z/28 always been designed in the past to exceed the GT500?

[Cobra_Commander]

Originally Posted by sen10l

This is an interesting topic. How has Chevy responded historically? Has the Z/28 always been designed in the past to exceed the GT500?

Believe it or not the Z28 and GT500 were completely two different types of cars back in the late 60's. Never were competitive at the time. Now it is the case. Mustang had so many models at the time the GT, the Boss, the Mach 1, etc... Camaro had the RS, the SS, the Z28, etc... and Shelby had the GT500, the GT350, the Cobra (which was an off shoot model based on the Mustang platform nothing more).

It's interesting how things change. But car companies could never afford to have as many models out as they did at that time. And that was only dealing with Ford and Chevy, nevermind: Pontiac, Mercury, Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge which all did the same thing!

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by sen10l

This is an interesting topic. How has Chevy responded historically? Has the Z/28 always been designed in the past to exceed the GT500?

Traditionally, the SS and Z28 were both designed in the same performance range. The Z28 would have less displacement with similar power, less features, and a track-tuned suspension. The SS would have more street-oriented luxuries and demonstrate the newest technology.

The ZL1 was more of a supercar in contrast.

Now, GM doesn't have the same room in the lineup. Maybe we'll see a ZL1 Camaro someday, but for now, we have a Z28 to fill the GT500-fighter spot.

[sen10l]

I don't think the Z/28 will "beat" the GT500 unless they move it to the alpha platform. But do they have to? The SS has better handling than the GT500 and I imagine the Z/28 will have better handling than the GT500, so it may very well beat the GT500 on the lightning lap/Nurburgring. I think the LL/Nurburgring is a more important target than straight-line acceleration.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by sen10l

I don't think the Z/28 will "beat" the GT500 unless they move it to the alpha platform. But do they have to? The SS has better handling than the GT500 and I imagine the Z/28 will have better handling than the GT500, so it may very well beat the GT500 on the lightning lap/Nurburgring. I think the LL/Nurburgring is a more important target than straight-line acceleration.

The SS isn't very far behind the GT500 in the quarter. With some more power and an upgraded suspension, there's no reason a Z28 would fall behind the GT500.

[sen10l]

Here, check this out:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p_2009-feature

check out the CTS-V lap times versus the GT500 and the BMW M3. It spanks both of them. Now is the Z/28 going to be lighter than the CTS-V? Yes. What it may not have is the electromagnetic suspension system but I imagine the Z/28 lap times to equal or better the CTS-V. Therefore Z/28 > GT500.

[radz28]

I'm going to disagree regarding acceleration performance, even with having not seen any information, I know from past GT500 models (and this is in an improvement...) that the GT500 will eat SS's lunch. Around a road course, that margin is going to shrink significantly, but if the course favors power, I'm pretty sure the GT500 is going to be on top. I can't take anything away, nor would I, from SS, but it's just not the same class. A Track Pack GT even is AT LEAST SS's equal around a course. Now, I know it wouldn't take much to get SS on track, however, that needs to happen first.

I think Z28 should be able to improve on CTS-V because of weight, and because I don't really think, packaging-wise, Camaro really restricts the power potential of LSA. What I mean is, Cadillac wanted to keep the exhaust volume down (unlike the last car, from what I remember) so I believe there is a fair amount of restriction in, at least, the exhaust on CTS-V. If LSA were to come over to Z28, with not actually mechanical changes, I think it would make more power in Camaro - straight off (I think the little bit of more power would require a little tuning to the PCM, but that's the absolute limit to the changes to LSA that I'm thinking about). Having said all that, I'm fairly certain Z28 would weigh less, not to mention additional weight savings I think that it would benefit from over CTS-V. I know there's going to be a limit to how much they change in the chassis, but I really hope we'll see shock from ZR1/CTS-V on Z28. Even without significant weight savings, I believe it'd be a Hell-of-a Z28. Look how many supercars get close to 2-tons of weight; they still perform extremely well, and I don't think it's a stretch to expect Z28 to get comparitively close to a base 'Vette - not much more though...

Alpha is too far away, IMHO, for Z28 to be on; they're still going to use Zeta II, IMO.

[Cobra_Commander]

Originally Posted by sen10l

I don't think the Z/28 will "beat" the GT500 unless they move it to the alpha platform. But do they have to? The SS has better handling than the GT500 and I imagine the Z/28 will have better handling than the GT500, so it may very well beat the GT500 on the lightning lap/Nurburgring. I think the LL/Nurburgring is a more important target than straight-line acceleration.

Last time I checked the 2010 GT handled better than the SS. Nevermind the GT500. But that doesn't mean the Z28 won't handle better. But lets not forget the 2011 GT500 just shaved off another 3-4 seconds, with the SVT Performance Package, around the track it was tested on in the Lightning Lap. We won't know until it comes out.

[Cobra_Commander]

Originally Posted by sen10l

Here, check this out:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p_2009-feature

check out the CTS-V lap times versus the GT500 and the BMW M3. It spanks both of them. Now is the Z/28 going to be lighter than the CTS-V? Yes. What it may not have is the electromagnetic suspension system but I imagine the Z/28 lap times to equal or better the CTS-V. Therefore Z/28 > GT500.

2011 GT500 with SVT Perf Pack anyone?

[sen10l]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I'm going to disagree regarding acceleration performance, even with having not seen any information, I know from past GT500 models (and this is in an improvement...) that the GT500 will eat SS's lunch. Around a road course, that margin is going to shrink significantly, but if the course favors power, I'm pretty sure the GT500 is going to be on top. I can't take anything away, nor would I, from SS, but it's just not the same class. A Track Pack GT even is AT LEAST SS's equal around a course. Now, I know it wouldn't take much to get SS on track, however, that needs to happen first.

first: no-one is comparing the SS with the GT500.

second: did you check the lightning lap results of the Stang GT? The times are no where near as good as the SS.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by sen10l

first: no-one is comparing the SS with the GT500.

second: did you check the lightning lap results of the Stang GT? The times are no where near as good as the SS.

To start: Check your tone; there's no need to respond this way.

Next: Read the posts above

Finally: Several 'rag reviews are getting great times with the Stang and compliment it's handling more than SSs; at least at this time. It is constantly praised, much to my dismay...

[MemphisRaines]

This is an interesting discussion and pretty civil considering it's essentially Camaro versus Mustang. I seriously considered a GT500 and think it's a great car, also considered waiting on a Z28 but went ahead and purchased an SS with the idea that I'm not sure a Z28 will ever happen. I also wondered about the price of a Z28, if it happens I think it will be closer to $40,000 than $50,000 simply because if it's closer to $50,000 than you're in Corvette territory...base corvette starts at $49,000. Maybe Chevy offers a $45,000 - $50,000 Z28 and the entry level Corvette is the Grand Sport at $55,000??? Could they build a Z28 that is different enough from the SS yet not quite up to Corvette standards for $45,000 or so...don't know.

For me car comparisons are about the type of car and how much they cost. I don't think comparing a Camaro SS to a GT500 is apples to apples. Seems like the better comparison is a GT500 to a Corvette even though historically it's Camaro versus Mustang...personally I looked at the GT500, Corvette, etc. but once I saw the Camaro I liked it much better then either of them and think for the money it's a heck of a performance value. If I want to up the ante later on I'll either upgrade it or move up to a GT500 or Corvette. If a Z28 is available that is on par with the GT500's potential than I don't know that I'd go with the Z28 over a Corvette...I personally like the look of the Camaro much better than the Corvette but not sure what I'd do, that's one decision though that doesn't really have a bad outcome....

[Fandango]

Ugh. You gotta love the self gloss of Cobra Camander.

I agree with Memphis. Z/28 has to be considerably cheaper than the base vette. If it is a production car and can be implemented into the current factory then we can expect to pay for performance parts instead of production cost. I say keep the changes simple such as the hood, facia, spoiler, wheels, and the obvious suspension and engine. I think there should not be a 2Z/28 or 1Z/28 classification. Supply issues become a problem when there are too many options. Remember cost of design and research has allready been taken care of. Infact if GM did this by the book, LT, SS, and Z/28 R&D was an upfront cost. Really if you concider this SS and LT owners are paying for the z/28 developement, therefore all that is left is road tests. This was postponed because of the Bankruptsy, economy, not only that, was the Camaro going to be the success that it was? To cover their buts GM had to cover the upfront costs in the first 100K to 200k units made. Remember the news was the the Z was ready for production, not research. And all articles pointed to a done deal. Two years to the date when you see the first test mules.

Good to see the timing too. If you remember, there was a mule that had a SC under the hood. My guess it was the white mountains IVER with the stripes.

I'm overloaded.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by MemphisRaines

This is an interesting discussion and pretty civil considering it's essentially Camaro versus Mustang. I seriously considered a GT500 and think it's a great car, also considered waiting on a Z28 but went ahead and purchased an SS with the idea that I'm not sure a Z28 will ever happen. I also wondered about the price of a Z28, if it happens I think it will be closer to $40,000 than $50,000 simply because if it's closer to $50,000 than you're in Corvette territory...base corvette starts at $49,000. Maybe Chevy offers a $45,000 - $50,000 Z28 and the entry level Corvette is the Grand Sport at $55,000??? Could they build a Z28 that is different enough from the SS yet not quite up to Corvette standards for $45,000 or so...don't know.

For me car comparisons are about the type of car and how much they cost. I don't think comparing a Camaro SS to a GT500 is apples to apples. Seems like the better comparison is a GT500 to a Corvette even though historically it's Camaro versus Mustang...personally I looked at the GT500, Corvette, etc. but once I saw the Camaro I liked it much better then either of them and think for the money it's a heck of a performance value. If I want to up the ante later on I'll either upgrade it or move up to a GT500 or Corvette. If a Z28 is available that is on par with the GT500's potential than I don't know that I'd go with the Z28 over a Corvette...I personally like the look of the Camaro much better than the Corvette but not sure what I'd do, that's one decision though that doesn't really have a bad outcome....

The GT500 is a flagship, just like a Corvette, even though they are technically different classes. The Z28 is up in the air, and I think you made a great choice by getting the SS. I will do the same.