2012 ZL1 vs. 2012 Boss 302

[rick]

sounds like GM needs to bring back the IROC-Z
leave the Z/28 for 1/4 mile and high HP is needed LOL

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by stikSS

Pit the ZL vs the boss.... it wouldn't make any difference if the Camaro waxed its ass in all catagories, they would still give the nod to the overpriced plasticed car... and yes, its loaded with plastic. I was able to look at one and not much to talk about.... other than it has a big price tag.

Not a very good argument. Our Camaros are too. Big deal.

[SSLarry]

Originally Posted by htron50

I've mentioned this before...listen to the rain echo "tap tap tap" and "tin tin tin" as you're sitting in a Mustang and you will forever wonder "why"?

Yes, you have mentioned this before. You're saying the GT500 doesn't have sound deadening material in the body? Uh..ok. I think it's called weight reduction.

EDIT: last time you were talking specifically about the GT500, here you say 'Mustang', so I digress.

[SSLarry]

Originally Posted by Bails

This.

I'm pretty sure there's a thread here that pointed out that the Boss 302 beats the Shelby around Laguna Seca so why would it be different with the ZL1? In a drag race the ZL1 or Shelby wins, on a road course the Boss wins. It won't be a blow out but it's what it was made for so it should be expected.

Doesn't it depend on the course? If the course has many straights and fewer curves, the heavier ZL1 will lose time in the curves, but may stay close enough to catch up and over take in the straights.

Won't a manufacturer choose the most appropriate course to do the grand unveiling to the press? We'll see where the ZL1 debuts.

[lets_go_bills]

This just goes to show how ridiculous some magazines are. This is proof positive that they are nothing more than meaningless, biased opinion pieces.

They've already concluded that the ZL1 doesn't stand a chance, yet the ZL1 isn't even out yet, nor have any of it's specs been announced. They haven't even driven the car and in their minds, it has already lost. They ALREADY have bias against it.

What a joke.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by porcupinekiller

Really????? Common!!!! Not even close. Both the Camaro and Mustang have evolved in several key areas since you guys built up your 2010 MY cars.
The 2012 Boss 302 received the 5.0(an N/A 5.0 can easily put down the same numbers or more than your supercharged 4.6 without adding extra weight over the front wheels), 6spd trans, chassis stiffening, electronic P/S and improved brakes and suspension geometry to name a few things. The 2012 ZL1 will have the LSA, beefier drivetrain components, better brakes, etc, etc.
Both base cars are improved dramatically over what you guys had to work with in 2010.

Also quite a few guys seem to be missing one big piece of info....the weight difference. The Boss 302 weighs in at just over 3600 lbs vs the ZL1's estimated 4000+ lbs. A 400 lb weight difference is not an insignificant amount.
Straight line I'm calling the ZL1 the winner, smoother, tighter road courses I'm calling the Boss 302 the winner. Longer tracks with longer straightaways and I think the advantage swings back to the ZL1.
Bottom line....I'm sure they'll both trounce some more expensive euro-cars in more than just a straight line.

I think you bring up some great points. I agree that I believe the weight will be the single biggest factor. However - there are some supercars, that, despite their weight, still perform amazing. They just have to work harder at it (and are a lot more expensive, lol). Pete's test wasn't optimal and neither car was performing to their potential (IMVHO), but CAMARO still hung on despite the weight advantage. I think it was the best for the time and don't question both were tuned and driven to the max'. I think the potential for ZL1 to do REALLY well is definately there. While I'd like domination, I don't expect it, nor will it change my mind. I don't want a racecar.

Originally Posted by Bails

This.

I'm pretty sure there's a thread here that pointed out that the Boss 302 beats the Shelby around Laguna Seca so why would it be different with the ZL1? In a drag race the ZL1 or Shelby wins, on a road course the Boss wins. It won't be a blow out but it's what it was made for so it should be expected.

I believe comparing ZL1 to the Shelby we see now is going to be quite surprising. While they're using the same tires, dimensions for ZL1 are going to be different, and I think ZL1 will put the power down better. The MR shocks will probably also give ZL1 an advantage. If the Shebly has an advantage - it will be the weight. I personally think ZL1 will trump the current Shelby, but I don't think those Dearborn boys have any intention on allowing that for long. We'll just have to see what GM has put together.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by porcupinekiller

Really????? Common!!!! Not even close. Both the Camaro and Mustang have evolved in several key areas since you guys built up your 2010 MY cars.
The 2012 Boss 302 received the 5.0(an N/A 5.0 can easily put down the same numbers or more than your supercharged 4.6 without adding extra weight over the front wheels), 6spd trans, chassis stiffening, electronic P/S and improved brakes and suspension geometry to name a few things. The 2012 ZL1 will have the LSA, beefier drivetrain components, better brakes, etc, etc.
Both base cars are improved dramatically over what you guys had to work with in 2010.

Also quite a few guys seem to be missing one big piece of info....the weight difference. The Boss 302 weighs in at just over 3600 lbs vs the ZL1's estimated 4000+ lbs. A 400 lb weight difference is not an insignificant amount.
Straight line I'm calling the ZL1 the winner, smoother, tighter road courses I'm calling the Boss 302 the winner. Longer tracks with longer straightaways and I think the advantage swings back to the ZL1.
Bottom line....I'm sure they'll both trounce some more expensive euro-cars in more than just a straight line.

The BOSS has a great engine. The balance of the car is ordinary by our standards. Our test Mustang used four of our chassis braces, all of them superior to those you find on the BOSS. The BOSS does deliver with the same size and strength sway bars we ran. Our coilover setup took 18 pounds of weight out of our Mustang. The adjustability in our ride heights allowed us to corner weight the Mustang to virtual perfection with driver and fuel. Our headers and light weight exhaust pulled another 20 pounds out of the car and our wheels another 30. We moved the battery to the trunk for better balance. RWHP is a dead heat. Our 15.1" six piston brakes are a giant leap forward over the BOSS. Running 305/30/19 RE-11s front and rear gives the Pedders car another huge advantage over the BOSS. The BOSS still uses the silly putty front lower rear control arm bush that contributes to dramatic shifts on acceleration and braking. The lift and dive unsettle the car. We used our in house solution to keep the car composed and controlled.

Aside from a couple of setup tweaks and driver's side harness there isn't much left in the Mustang platform. You could throw in a lot more RWHP, but we are turning at close to limits now. RWHP isn't the solution at Gingerman, but I'll take every pony we can get.

Our test Mustang weighed in at just over 300 pounds lighter than the Camaro with fuel and driver ready to take the track. The Camaro was slightly faster in the turns and carried the day. As Hot Rod wrote -- consider them a dead heat.

The ZL1 will have some advantages over the SS. The big ones are an improved differential, larger more robust half shafts, revised rear control arm, revised rear sway bar and the same CTS-V brakes we ran on our Camaro. While all of these are stronger and better, they will also add a bit of weight. If anyone wants to know what the performance of a ZL1 will be they need look no further than the Pedders USA Camaro.

The Test Motor Trend should be talking about is the next generation of supercars. What will modded Boss 302s and ZL1s be capable of on the track? I can tell you I already know the answer to that question too. They will be FASTER.

[Black5thgen]

As much of a 5th gen fanboi as I am, I have to agree with MT. The Boss beat a Z06 around Leguna Seca, I don't see the ZL1 doing that. That will be the Z28's job. Less power + better suspension + less weight = better lap times.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

If anyone wants to know what the performance of a ZL1 will be they need look no further than the Pedders USA Camaro.

Pete, just how close is the Pedders USA Camaro to the ZL1 and where can I find the performance information on this car.

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

As much of a 5th gen fanboi as I am, I have to agree with MT. The Boss beat a Z06 around Leguna Seca, I don't see the ZL1 doing that. That will be the Z28's job. Less power + better suspension + less weight = better lap times.

Gm can "Fly out" its own race car driver too, and the Z06 will post quicker lap times. Its not an apples to apples comparison at all, its was just great advertisement for the Boss. A professional driver has more skill than a mag tester, car and driver's lightning lap uses the same driver for all cars which would be a better comparison of lap times. Anyone who thinks the boss would keep paces with the Z06 lap after lap at your local track day are going to be in for a rude awakening.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

As much of a 5th gen fanboi as I am, I have to agree with MT. The Boss beat a Z06 around Leguna Seca, I don't see the ZL1 doing that. That will be the Z28's job. Less power + better suspension + less weight = better lap times.

The benchmark we are chasing is the T1 C6 Z06 RACE CAR AVERAGE of 1.32.1 These are caged, triangulated, full on race cars running slicks. We benchmark against RACE CARS, even though we do run on STREET tires. The next time out in June we think the Mustang will be in the 1:32 range. Full street cars with full interiors running as fast as RACE CARS.

The ZL1 we expect to be even faster once have it setup Pedders style. The ZL1 should be chasing the T1 Porsche GT3 lap record.

I use three drivers. Chris Brannon, Stan Wilson and John Buttermore. They are all fast and equally matched. That is how we try to remove the driver variable in our benchmark sessions. You'll notice that the CTS-V RACE CAR, the Mustang and Camaro all used the same driver.

The Camaro pulls 1.38 G steady state turns. The Mustang just a hair below at 1.33 Gs.



For what it is worth, we could bolt on slicks and EASILY pick up a minimum of 2 seconds. On slicks we are in a dead heat with the T1 Corvette Race Car Average, but then it would NOT be a street car. We will get there. First with the Mustang. Next with the Camaro. This thread has more detail. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100421

[Black5thgen]

Originally Posted by truth411

Gm can "Fly out" its own race car driver too, and the Z06 will post quicker lap times. Its not an apples to apples comparison at all, its was just great advertisement for the Boss. A professional driver has more skill than a mag tester, car and driver's lightning lap uses the same driver for all cars which would be a better comparison of lap times. Anyone who thinks the boss would keep paces with the Z06 lap after lap at your local track day are going to be in for a rude awakening.

According to the list, MT testers drove the Boss. I can't say whether that's true or not.

[Black5thgen]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The benchmark we are chasing is the T1 C6 Z06 RACE CAR AVERAGE of 1.32.1 These are caged, triangulated, full on race cars running slicks. We benchmark against RACE CARS, even though we do run on STREET tires. The next time out in June we think the Mustang will be in the 1:32 range. Full street cars with full interiors running as fast as RACE CARS.

The ZL1 we expect to be even faster once have it setup Pedders style. The ZL1 should be chasing the T1 Porsche GT3 lap record.

I use three drivers. Chris Brannon, Stan Wilson and John Buttermore. They are all fast and equally matched. That is how we try to remove the driver variable in our benchmark sessions. You'll notice that the CTS-V RACE CAR, the Mustang and Camaro all used the same driver.

The Camaro pulls 1.38 G steady state turns. The Mustang just a hair below at 1.33 Gs.



For what it is worth, we could bolt on slicks and EASILY pick up a minimum of 2 seconds. On slicks we are in a dead heat with the T1 Corvette Race Car Average, but then it would NOT be a street car. We will get there. First with the Mustang. Next with the Camaro. This thread has more detail. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100421

I wouldn't argue with the fact that a Pedders equipped ZL1 would own a Boss on the track but the ZL1 stock with mag ride won't. I hope GM taps in to either Pedders or Pfadt for the Z28 suspension set up and runs better times than the Boss in stock form. You guys have definitely proven that potential for the 5th gen chassis is there to be tapped. Great work

[truth411]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

I wouldn't argue with the fact that a Pedders equipped ZL1 would own a Boss on the track but the ZL1 stock with mag ride won't. I hope GM taps in to either Pedders or Pfadt for the Z28 suspension set up and runs better times than the Boss in stock form. You guys have definitely proven that potential for the 5th gen chassis is there to be tapped. Great work

The mag ride suspension is already better than the Boss. That Mag ride suspension is one of the most (if not the most) fastest responding suspension in the world. Ferrari uses the same thing after GM Pioneered it. The big difference between the ZL1 and the Boss is Wieght.

Wheel/Tire, Brakes, Suspension:
ZL1>Boss

Wieght:
Boss>ZL1 (I am guessing over 300lbs)