Tuner will VOID warranty

[tradosaurus]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh this is awesome. I am a manager in Validation at GM. If you want me to teach you the class I teach on reliability and durability I would be happy to. I work every day with the engineers looking for every possible ounce of FE and balance it with performance. And I have no reason to make anything up as you seem to think.

If you are shifting a trans firmer to avoid slip in the torque convertor and clutch you are driving the loads into the gears, propshaft u-joints and rear axle. And yes that statistically impacts the durability of those components. Were the valves validated for your increased pressure? No. At all operating temperatures? Hot? Cold?

And if you are running AFM in the trucks at lower speeds to gain FE, then I know that unless you are retuning the exhaust and mounts and going to an active engine mount at a minimum you are impacting noise levels in the vehicle. So, yes, if you have a customer that is only concerned about FE and not noise then yeah GM can do that too. And you really need to be able validate your FE claims are you running the US schedule? California?

Do you take those cals and run up Baker Grade with 20,000 pounds in the trailer with that cal on a 110 F day? Do you go to Kap and confirm it starts at -40 F everytime? For months on end?

So yes, there is a trade off. It is either in durability, fuel economy, noise, emissions. What you do only addresses a few of the parameters GM is legally obliged to balance. And you aren't obliged to deal with those issues, GM is.

So I'll repeat myself. Yes there is a market for what you do. I fully agree that you can get more HP with a Calibration or more FE. But if you add HP you are negatively impactiing reliability and if you want to debate field reliability vs. test reliability I'd be happy to do that in another thread.

LOL seriously RLOL. Not sure why you guys feel the need to discredit me. I understand your business and as I've said I support it. So clearly it is something that bothers you that I try to bring facts to the table that are based on where I work and what I do.

Oh, and I could go on and on.........

I think Diablosport and others in the same business feel threatened by your information as their sales could be impacted if people out of fear of voiding their warranty stop purchasing their product and services.

Just my opinion and a cup of coffee I'm drinking....

[2SSCAMARO]

STEVE.... May I ask how you intend on running high flow cats, CAI and loong tubes without a tune?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by live2well

Just one thought ...how can ones warranty be voided without proof that the tune or any other mod caused the problem in question? I am pretty sure there are laws that prohibit the voiding of the warranty without proof that what was modified cause the issue. Even if it is written in the paper work that GM gave you that any change in the original car will void the warranty, the law supersedes the paperwork provided. JMO


With that said.....a lie is a lie.

The law allows you to fight denied warranty work, but it requires you to fight. When you go in for work, you're basically asking the dealer to spend time to file paperwork with GM and for GM to spend money on your car. Obviously, you don't want to pay for your car's work, so you can see how no one else wants to absorb that cost either.

According to your warranty, your manufacturer is responsible under certain conditions. One of those conditions is that you appropriately fuel and maintain your vehicle. Another condition is that you don't abuse your vehicle or use it for functions other than the obvious use of the vehicle. Finally, there is the condition that you don't modify the vehicle. It doesn't give exceptions of any kind.

If you choose to modify your vehicle, the law protects you. A part that you install must have caused the part needing warranty work to break in order to have the claim denied. This is all good on paper, but the reality is that your dealer can deny you for whatever they want despite the law. It is up to you to protect yourself. If you feel that your work should be covered under warranty, call a lawyer. The great thing about a democracy is the citizen's ability to right wrongs. You will be your best advocate—not your dealer, not GM, not anyone else. When you feel that you are treated unjustly, it is strictly your responsibility to make sure that justice is served, and our government gives us the means, at some expense, to pursue justice.

[live2well]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

The law allows you to fight denied warranty work, but it requires you to fight. When you go in for work, you're basically asking the dealer to spend time to file paperwork with GM and for GM to spend money on your car. Obviously, you don't want to pay for your car's work, so you can see how no one else wants to absorb that cost either.

According to your warranty, your manufacturer is responsible under certain conditions. One of those conditions is that you appropriately fuel and maintain your vehicle. Another condition is that you don't abuse your vehicle or use it for functions other than the obvious use of the vehicle. Finally, there is the condition that you don't modify the vehicle. It doesn't give exceptions of any kind.

If you choose to modify your vehicle, the law protects you. A part that you install must have caused the part needing warranty work to break in order to have the claim denied. This is all good on paper, but the reality is that your dealer can deny you for whatever they want despite the law. It is up to you to protect yourself. If you feel that your work should be covered under warranty, call a lawyer. The great thing about a democracy is the citizen's ability to right wrongs. You will be your best advocate—not your dealer, not GM, not anyone else. When you feel that you are treated unjustly, it is strictly your responsibility to make sure that justice is served, and our government gives us the means, at some expense, to pursue justice.

So in short, are you saying that the burden of proof falls on the consumer?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by live2well

So in short, are you saying that the burden of proof falls on the consumer?

The burden of proof falls on the manufacturer. The burden of asking for proof falls on the customer.

[thecamaroguy]

Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO

STEVE.... May I ask how you intend on running high flow cats, CAI and loong tubes without a tune?

You just run with the Check Engine light on...

TAG's car doesn't have a tune and he has all the go fast parts...

[2SSCAMARO]

you could do that though i suspect performance wise, it would be little improvement over stock, maybe even poorer performance due to the wacked out fuel trims, timing, AFR, PE, etc.

[live2well]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

The burden of proof falls on the manufacturer. The burden of asking for proof falls on the customer.

Ok

[mghawk57]

Important: In order to process an engine/transmission/drivetrain WARRANTY CLAIM , you MUST photograph the required Tech 2® screen information BEFORE disassembly or removing the engine/transmission/drivetrain components from the vehicle.

For 2007-2010 applications, an engine control module (ECM) algorithm was implemented that records the engine calibration part number and calibration verification number (CVN) for the last 10 flash programming events. The ECM records the engine calibration part number because it contains the parameters for increasing torque and fueling rates.

If a vehicle comes in for service for a driveability/powertrain concern as a result of a Power-Up Kit installation, the dealership technician can read the last 10 engine calibration part numbers and CVN history using a Tech 2®.
This is in part from GM Service Information

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by mghawk57

Important: In order to process an engine/transmission/drivetrain WARRANTY CLAIM , you MUST photograph the required Tech 2® screen information BEFORE disassembly or removing the engine/transmission/drivetrain components from the vehicle.

For 2007-2010 applications, an engine control module (ECM) algorithm was implemented that records the engine calibration part number and calibration verification number (CVN) for the last 10 flash programming events. The ECM records the engine calibration part number because it contains the parameters for increasing torque and fueling rates.

If a vehicle comes in for service for a driveability/powertrain concern as a result of a Power-Up Kit installation, the dealership technician can read the last 10 engine calibration part numbers and CVN history using a Tech 2®.
This is in part from GM Service Information

Again, old news, and not a concern for Predator/Trinity users.

[Number 3]

Let me be clear again. I do not oppose anyone getting their car recalibrated. My Sky has a GMPP calibration in it. I know the benefits and the risks :( very well.

I support the guys on here that are trying to promote a product that for many will improve their enjoyment of their Camaros.

And yes I believe they have skills to adjust parameters in a calibration that can improve HP or FE under a more limited set of conditions than what GM has to do because of many other requirements GM has to meet for Federal requirements, satisfy buyers in Denver, Alaska and Phoenix. Which reminds me of the old days when you used to have to buy an altitude package....or drive 25 mph up to the ski resorts west of Denver.

I am ONLY continuing the conversation for two reasons.

One, sources at GM, my employer have told me that GM has the ability to determine if a calibration has been removed and resinstalled in the ECM. I have reviewed documentation that says for any powertrain warranty the ECM is closely reviewed by GM, not the dealer. So I am only advising the Camaro family here to take that into consideration. As I've mentioned most people know they pay to play and understand the relationship.

Two, the biggest reason for my not giving up, is that some are also suggesting that not only can you reflash the cal to the original state and then take your car back for warranty GM can't tell. As an employee of GM, the company that brought you this wonderful car, I am posting my objections that simple premise. At a minimum it's unethical. Sorry, that's just how I roll.

I have only tried to keep things on the up and up and keep the members informed of the things I am able to share (and tease about the things I can't). If you want to try to make it personal, I'll slap my degrees and resume' out and we can have a good technical discussion any time.

But I've made my point..............tappin' out.

[Michael_Js]

All good points Number 3! Pay n play is the way to handle this and hopefully no one is out to screw the manufacturer of our great car! Tuning is cool, within the limits of the car and what you could cause. Hopefully your respectful enough to own up to the mods that might have caused the issues. I have never tuned or touched a car before in that way, so all this is new to me and I am trying to learn and understand. This thread is very good and hopefully people continue to be respectful to keep the exchange of information going.

Thanks!

[LT1Jeep]

http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?id=60128

http://www.donmar.com/ConsumerBillofRights.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/magnuson-moss-warranty-act

[Alfieboy]

Originally Posted by Number 3

First, I'm not saying you guys can't recalibrate an ECM. And don't misunderstand me, I'm all for enthusiasts that use your services to provide said recalibrations. So it isn't that I doubt your mad hacker skills. So don't go there, that isn't the issue.

But as you guys come on this forum to represent your business, I come on here to represnt mine.

I don't need to know how to recalibrate a powertrain control module in order to have this discussion. But I do know the guys that do and I am informed that steps have been taken to be capable of recognizing when the ECM has been reprogrammed and re-reprogrammed. And I trust what these guys are telling me.

And lastly, fraud is defined as: A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

For a customer to violate their warranty and then try to hide that violation to secure warranty work is by that deffinition, fraud. But that is my opinion. Maybe yours is different.

So again, I support you guys. It is absolutly awesome that you guys can help customers squeeze more HP out of the Camaros. And it's cool that you have businesses that help customers achieve higher levels of performance. The cars are calibrated to achieve the best balance of performance, emissions, fuel economy and durability. If a customer wants to use your product to trade off durabilty for performance, awesome!!! It just shouldn't be at GM's expense, and that is why I get bothered when someone suggests you can undo the recalibration to get the work done.

NUmBER 3 .No disrespect intended- I have no tune. just trying to fit in the discussion..more of a question vs a statement




But your so worried about fraud..actually there isnt any FRAUD... I mean Cmon :
A guy buys new car.. has 100 mile son it...changes wheel sizes gets it fixed thru programming to correct speedo..k?....tech yea..he shouldnt have:.. ok

But down the line the ..um 100 mile slater the cooling system develops leak... water pump..for some reason bearing sbad..what ever...

Yea he outta be able to go to dealer fix cooling issue with no prob.. some wont allow..

so to recalibrate the programming back to original for speedo is considered fraud?

your terminology is lacking..NOT everyone is out to FRAUD anyone, yes there may be a few that do.. but not 95 % of the Camaro-GM comminity.. get it..?

Rick
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