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Old 06-16-2011, 03:05 PM   #43
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Getting higher peak gain is straight out pain in the ass IMHO. I can't remember if you are auto or manual bmorecam, but most of my gain after the 13hp tune was installed was in the mid/userful rpm ranges. My peak had barely change. I don't know what the deal with this car is when it comes to peak gains.

In either sense that is some outstanding gain you have there, makes me want to find a e85 gas station
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:05 PM   #44
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Very good info to chew on Hotrod.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:25 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade View Post
Getting higher peak gain is straight out pain in the ass IMHO. I can't remember if you are auto or manual bmorecam, but most of my gain after the 13hp tune was installed was in the mid/userful rpm ranges. My peak had barely change. I don't know what the deal with this car is when it comes to peak gains.

In either sense that is some outstanding gain you have there, makes me want to find a e85 gas station
what vince did to regular gas tune is complete opposite from what he did to e85 tune. with the regular 13hp gas tune he actually advanced intake and retarded the exhaust to create more room to advance timing or to get more scavenging effect(or both). By doing that it decrease cylinder pressure a little bit enough to not cause any detonation while gaining the extra ponies.

With the e85 tune he did the complete opposite which will need higher octane to supress any knock that might come alive since pressure and effective compression will be raised.

One thing I learned for sure is that our LLT is defenitely a high winder.. if you look at my dyno with e85 you will notice the power was actually still pulling towards 7000rpm.

Almost forgot, I have a manual.
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:56 PM   #46
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Guys, am I the only one who missed the actual total gain with e85??

The dyno only show the "difference" hp it made between gas tune and e85 tune. Which mean that the e85 tune just make 20 more rwhp than a gas tune. The total e85 tune is worth over 33rwhp!!
The off peak is even higher in the 40's.
I dont know why I been thinking the e85 was only worth 20hp??that is only the difference in number.
Maybe because I was just so tired that night from being at the dyno for so long..

I have to still figure out what the total e85 tune's tq is worth.

So as of right now, the gas tune is 13hp and e85 is worth 33hp!! that is better than what I expected. I guess vince's theory actually does work.

Last edited by bmorecam; 06-17-2011 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:24 PM   #47
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:29 PM   #48
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I get what your saying bmorecam. You don't have a base dyno with all your mods and no tune correct?

So your assuming the advertised 13 HP from the gas tune, and then you gained around 20 on top of that with your E85. Makes sense!

But again thats assuming the gas tune did indeed give you 13 HP over what a stock tune and your mods would have gotten you...we may never know forsure.

That said, yes I still think the E85 tune is fantastic!
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:07 PM   #49
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Prenger, the only reason why I can't put a stamp on it is because I dont have the actual stock dyno of my own car, but from looking at the few peoples dyno with vince's new gas tune, that 13 hp is very valid. I dont think vince is going to advertise as 13hp tune and peoples dont actually get 13hp or close, but it is a very debateable subject.

Anyhow, take a look at my main post and tell me what you think of my math. I actually updated again from gathering other v6's data on this forum and my personal experience. If my math and my assumption is correct(13hp tune, 10hp for long tube headers, 5hp for no cats and full exhaust)the final outcome could actually be bigger than 33rwhp!!
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:04 PM   #50
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Hrm...I think the math does add up since you stayed fairly conservative in your numbers...although dynoing 235 - 240 on a stock M6 would be pretty low...I guess it is possible (in this case) for two reasons:

1) It was hot the day you dyno'd (and I'm guessing has been hot in every run since)
2) The owner of the dyno shop says his dyno reads lower than an average dynojet would.

Soo..If those two assumptions are correct, that could easily be a good 10 - 20 hp less than the 260 range dyno readings we've seen from some other M6 V6ers out there.

Very interesting.

Bad part is all of the dynoing is probably costing you a fortune...but I have to say if you get another dyno with the Vararam I'm looking forward to that very much!

AND THEN...

if you really wanted to throw away more money (well, its not throwing it away, but ya know what I mean lol) you could maybe dyno at the other place (hopefully they use a dynojet) and see what you get there. If its not a dynojet, I don't know if I'd do it.

Has the guy you've been dynoing at ever gotten reading from a stock L99 or LS3?
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:27 PM   #51
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stock cars dyno very low sometimes.. just look at the list I put together for an example. There are actually more peoples that dyno low than there are peoples who dynoed high or normal. I know of 1 person who dynoed on the "same exact" model of dynojet as I did and thats our own member rolnslo. He dynoed 236rwhp and at 5000 miles I think 240rwhp stock manual, but I dont even think I have to compare with anyones dyno numbers to kinda round up my stock baseline.

Lets look at my mods before e85...

Vince's newest tune, with this man's name in line I dont think he will put out a number and dont deliver, and the ones that did dyno his newest tune already seen 13+rwhp increase, but lest just be conservative with this one also and say 8hp.

long tube headers, usually LT's are known to dyno 18+hp with a tune but lets be really conservative and just say 10hp.

Full cat back exhaust, usually known to dyno around 5hp.

removal of all cats, usually known to dyno 5-10hp, but lets be conservative and say 5hp.

Now lets all add up the lowest numbers, 10+5+5+8=28

With everything above installed I dynoed 264rwhp.

Now lets see, 264-28=236this has to be highest possible stock baseline.

with the e85 tune I dynoed 284rwhp.

284-236=48, 48-8(gas tune)=40rwhp!!

I think(almost positive)that the gains are actually higher than 33rwhp. I will have to talk to vince when he get back on this a little more, but I wont bother you all with this anymore. I feel like im in middle school doing all this basic math

This is actually bigger than I thought!!
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:23 AM   #52
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In the latest issue of High Performance Pontiac, there are a couple informative articles on modern fuels. They wrote more for how an old engine (Pontiac SD-455) would perform on e10, e15, & e85, but they went through a good explanation of fuel properties (burn rate, etc.) and the differences between fuels systems if you were building an engine for e85 versus e10.

Interesting read for anyone who is interested in e85.
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:29 AM   #53
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Thank you larry.. I think what alot of peoples seem to dont realize is that there are no set single number on a dyno. Most folks will go into a dyno thinking you are going to come out with same numbers as others, but this is completely false. One can go in and get low results(like myself), and other can go in and get higher results, but does it mean that the car that got a lower reading is slower than the car that got an higher reading?? Absolutely not!

You explained very nicely on the things that can affect dyno reading. No 2 dyno are ever the same, and the difference can be quite large. This is one of the very reason why I made the dyno run list for our V6. If you take a look at the spreadsheet you will easily see that 2 dynos are never the same, and the numbers can fluctuate quite a bit.

Thanks again Larry
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:38 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gahammerle View Post
In the latest issue of High Performance Pontiac, there are a couple informative articles on modern fuels. They wrote more for how an old engine (Pontiac SD-455) would perform on e10, e15, & e85, but they went through a good explanation of fuel properties (burn rate, etc.) and the differences between fuels systems if you were building an engine for e85 versus e10.

Interesting read for anyone who is interested in e85.
I know one thing for sure.. us LLT V6 guys are very lucky to have what we got. Most N/A stock internal vehicles usually see gains from zero to 5%(from what I've seen). The gains that we pulled from our LLT is almost in par with turbo charged cars, although turbo cars see gains up north of 50whp.

I must say that I am very lucky to have vince as our tuner because he proved that his theory infact does work!
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Old 06-18-2011, 12:01 PM   #55
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time to save up the cash for the tune
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:57 AM   #56
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Has vince gotten back from his vacation and gotten the kinks out of this tune? I'm ready to try it out!
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