01-04-2012, 07:45 PM | #43 | |
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01-04-2012, 08:17 PM | #44 |
Moderator.ca
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I'm not going to get into a discussion on CAFE or the bailout in this thread. I will reply (at some point) privately though. I encourage anyone else that wishes to talk about these things with HTP Autoworks do the same. Both of those topics inevitably turn from facts into politics, and I don't want this thread to get derailed by that.
As for your participation in this area, its not about getting rid of people that disagree. My point was that if you're not interested in the Z28 we've been expecting, there are probably other places on Camaro5 that you'd enjoy more (and would welcome you more). For example, if what you want is a 700 hp GT500 competitor, thats fine. Head on over to the ZL1 forum and see what the folks over there think of such a car. If there is anything that should be such a monster, its the ZL1. After all, the ZL1 is the big dog, the ultimate, the king kong, the be-all and end-all Camaro. I'm sure there will be some receptive ears for the type of car you want to see over there. And they'll be open to discussing what may or may not be possible/practical/desirable and so on. Lastly ... freedom of speech applies to speaking in public. This forum, although open to the public, is in fact privately owned and operated.
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Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________ Originally Posted by FbodFather My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors...... ........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!__________________ Camaro Fest sub-forum |
01-04-2012, 08:26 PM | #45 |
Too Many Great Choices
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Ok I got the message...back to my favorite station Z28!
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01-04-2012, 08:42 PM | #46 | |
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01-04-2012, 08:52 PM | #47 |
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I am getting a ZL1, Ok. But, a Z28 is still a Z28. A name that is still the ICON. ZL1 may be a FLASH IN THE PAN much like 1969. I may be a lucky owner of a ZL1 shortly, but I WILL FOREVER ADMIRE AND DESIRE a Z28 of this generation. People will someday see the new Z28, whatever GM does, and we KNOW it will be AWESOME. Maybe I could have an automatic ZL1 and a stick Z28. Talk about a dream garage! Ok, allow me to come back down to reality...........
Last edited by htron50; 01-04-2012 at 09:07 PM. |
01-04-2012, 09:19 PM | #48 | |
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01-04-2012, 09:31 PM | #49 | |
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01-05-2012, 06:48 AM | #50 | |
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And by your justification (in the Z28/Viper) example, someone should get two V6 Camaros instead of a ZL1. A Viper is a track ready HAND BUILT street legal car that has set just about every track record out there. A ZL1 didnt fair so well at the Ring (in comparison) and is built by robots on an assembly line. |
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01-05-2012, 07:33 AM | #51 | |
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01-05-2012, 09:32 AM | #52 | |
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If I may, I'll take a few moments from my otherwise fanciful dream of a proper ZEE and amuse you further... Viper ACR setting a 7:12 time @ the 'Ring (and being that coveted piece because its hand-assembled): Good for them...with a Used Car running on R-compound tires, no longer manufactured because it was oh-so-awesome and oh-so-value-packed. I'm sure Fiat has great plans for this dormant nameplate... ZL1 @ the 'Ring: 7:41...a perfect example of what a few extra horses, a wee diet (100 or so lb.), and better wheels/tires/suspension can do, relative to the 7:58 pulled off by the CTS-V. Don't forget these important points... Banko: The proper way out of their financial quagmire was/is to build vehicles, at a profit, that people willingly (longingly??) wanna buy...without rebates... Mass-produced: The more built and sold, the more profitable something will become. And you can produce more vehicles with higher quality in greater numbers with modern computerized robotic assistance. Hand-assembled works wonderfully when you're building handfulls, NOT 1,000s. Undeniable FACT. Specialized vehicles are complex and expensive: Correct...when hand-assembled and built in tiny batches, relatively. Or when built on an assemblyline, a few at a time, interspersed with much higher volume units, if utilizing rare, custom-made pieces. GM can't possibly build a profitable Z/28: Gee, time to close this whole section... Oh, wait a minute. Somewhere in this vast "resource" called the Camaro Z28 Forum - Z28 Specific Topics exists numerous posts contributing ideas, knowledge, GM-approved manufacturing techniques...and rationalization from decades of GM first-hand experience. At the Wholesale and Retail levels. In engineering. In manufacturing processes. In certification/validation. You know, the things Mopar didn't need to go through to send their one-off Used Car around the 'Ring @ 7:12... If you don't have the time or inclination to go through ALL that "data", let me give you the Cliff's Notes version...and you can start with my signature, below... There, you have just seen a buildable recipe for an Oshawa-produced ZEE...buildable in numbers I personally believe will DWARF the ZL1...just as it did in '69...just as it could in '13-'14-'15... EVERY SINGLE PART LISTED is now sitting on a shelf in a GM facility. In fact, every item (save the engine and a ZEE-specific hood) is NOW sitting in Oshawa. Applied, as suggested, and batch-built (yeah, we've even discussed that), with a Retail Price as indicated, GM would be another step further from banko...and hopefully you agree that would be a good thing...GM being further from Chapter 11...and 1,000s of extra Camaros being SOLD-SOLD-SOLD! Would a ZEE eat away at ZL1/SS sales? Quite likely. BUT, they'll migrate to another CAMARO, not a 'Stang or a Challenger...or a Used-up Fiat-owned buckboard. |
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01-05-2012, 10:31 AM | #53 |
CamaroFans.com
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Oh please... Everything has a price... and there are insurance companies for everything...
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01-05-2012, 11:24 AM | #54 |
I will admit I didn't read through this thread completely, but I don't think you will see a Z/28 for a while. Just because they are testing a product, does not mean they have to bring it to production. If GM were to show the Z/28 at the Detroit Auto Show, that also does not guarentee it will see production. Honestly, I think you guys that believe the Z/28 is right around the corner are going to be disappointed because I don't believe it show up until the 6th generation. I really hope I am wrong though; I would love to see a Boss 302 fighter.
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01-05-2012, 11:38 AM | #55 | |
Downright Upright
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A ZEE, relative to a ZL1, is what the Z06 is to a ZR1...which is exactly 3 seconds @ the 'Ring...7:22 vs. 7:19. Now, taking about 200 lbs. off the wheels of a ZL1 can only have a positive effect on performance. Giving up 75 hp hurts...but the Vettes are 130-some horses apart...and 154 lbs. apart...and only 3 seconds difference. The Camaros, potentially, could/should be closer... The ZEE recipe marries a de-contented ZL1 (weight-savings) with an LS7 (further weight-savings) to create a more rev-able, more nimble, lower-priced, insurance-friendlier (your point) and therefore more voluminous Camaro which, unless you're a GM hater, is only a PLUS! |
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01-05-2012, 04:21 PM | #56 | |
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z/28 announced this fall |
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