Blown engine - Looking for advice on road course rebuild

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by tw78911sc

wow, I'm so sorry, I was planning on following your footprints in time with add ons. I;ve seen your videos and your car is a rocket. I know is it painful, but let us know what yo learn so I don't go down the same path. I hope it is something that isn't too costly. We're you able to limp the car home? i know you have the slick track trailer with extra wheels/tools.

I was able to get someone at the track to trailer me all the way home, 3-1/2 hours away. Very cool guy from Florida. A friend of mine owns a house near the track, so I stashed my mini trailer there.

I'll keep you guys posted, wish me luck.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by Pro Stock John

So... White or blue smoke? Were you burning coolant, licorice smell? Could have blown a head gasket. In the teardown you'd see a head gasket with some burned channels, or damage or some kind.

If you had an oiling issue. bearings will look all scored.

If you ran too hot, you could blow a head gasket.

Didn't read your other threads on the board but I'd be more concerned about your cooling system, and what your oil pressure was doing.

UPDATE: I got it up in the air and found oil here and there, a small amount but it gets blown all over the place at 130MPH. I can't see where it's coming from, but a little streaked down and cooked onto the headers. It's also on the starter, a bit at the rear of the oil pan, and blown back on the bell housing. A couple of tablespoons are on the floor, here and there. I couldn't see the source.

The smoke appeared blue in the rear view mirror. One person said black, another said definitely blue. The smoke didn't occur in the pits at idle, only upon hard acceleration.

There's something I've been thinking may be an important clue. When I picked up the car from the shop that did my heads, intake and tune, I distinctly smelled coolant especially under hood, as if there was a small leak but I couldn't see it anywhere. smell it right now under the hood. I checked the coolant level, maybe 1/2 cup low but hard to know if that's the level they put in it after the heads installation. I continued to smell this coolant when I got home and drove to a mechanic friend's. He said that perhaps they got some in the exhaust and it takes a while for it to burn out of the cats. Could this mean a blown head gasket? There's no water in the oil or visa versa, both appear normal. It's definitely not putting out steam from the tailpipe. And if it did blow a head gasket, could it have damaged the engine? It makes a rattling sound like something's f-ed up inside.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by Todd in Vancouver

Sorry if you have already covered this but why not look at a 427 cGM crate engine? It has about the same power and has been engineered for the driving you are doing. Not sure on what the warranty is but worth looking into.

My other question is have you considered moving into a ZL1 which would give you added power and has track warranty so you can run it as hard as you want. I've watched your videos on here and have really enjoyed the stuff you've posted.

Probably too late to consider a 427, unless my engine upgrades are a total loss. I'll likely want to rebuild what I have, keep the Trick Flow Heads and Fast Intake if they survived. But I suppose I could consider a 427 if it's not too much of a nightmare to convert over to one, if all of the parts are compatible. The thing is, I'm 80 HP at the flywheel more than a stock 427, and would need the same output to be competitive in my NASA class.

The ZL1 is a fine machine, but not light enough for what I'm looking for as mine has morphed into a track dedicated car. I believe the track warranty would be void in my case because I compete in time trials. If the Z/28 wasn't so pricey, I'd consider it. But even if I got one, I'd have to dump some money into it- racing seats, roll bar, Etc. I'd probably go bigger on the aero as well. So starting with a stripped SS 1LE seemed like the right thing to do.

[1977and2010]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

I tried to avoid the risk of a broken valve spring by going mild cam with reasonably low lift, because I was concerned about that very thing. Now I'm gun shy too, I just want something robust that will last multiple seasons. I will track about 20 track days a year competing in NASA, so it's going to see some harsh duty.

I looked at the ATK engines. The 415 c.i. will increase my HP to the point where I couldn't compete in the NASA class that I'm in. Any advice on a top quality short block builder for the stock 378 c.i.?

It all depends on how much you can or are willing to spend. I looked into Livernois, Texas speed, ATK, katech, mast, LME, and a few others. Any of those will be able to hook you up. When I was was first looking into them there is a pretty good range in the prices between them. I ended up going with the ATK, mostly because they were the cheapest but also because they seem to have a quality product. I hope a big company like summit wouldn't promote a junk piece. Also went the cheaper route because of how mine failed. A part of the valve train (upper end) took out the short block lower end. It seems the short blocks of these LS motors are pretty tough, valve trans not so much. If something like this happens again it will hurt a little less.

As far as the 416 making too much power, it sure could but it's all in the parts combination selected. I went with a "mild cam" myself. I've seen a lot of cam failures lately and one thing I learned is that comp cams heat treats their cans and then grinds them. The cam in my new motor from EPS grinds them and then heat treats them. According to them. Good luck

[Pro Stock John]

Yeah you can get a coolant smell and even oil smells after major top-end work, stuff does spill.

If you only down 1/2 cup on coolant doesn't sound like that was the problem, just thinking out loud.

Did you check around your oil cooler? Mine broke, the actual housing, and oil would just pour out if I drove the car. I got mine fixed under warranty but I bought all the parts to delete it from the car. Though in your case, you'd want some sort of oil cooler (or do you already have one?)?

[BlackinBlack]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

Probably too late to consider a 427, unless my engine upgrades are a total loss. I'll likely want to rebuild what I have, keep the Trick Flow Heads and Fast Intake if they survived. But I suppose I could consider a 427 if it's not too much of a nightmare to convert over to one, if all of the parts are compatible. The thing is, I'm 80 HP at the flywheel more than a stock 427, and would need the same output to be competitive in my NASA class.

The ZL1 is a fine machine, but not light enough for what I'm looking for as mine has morphed into a track dedicated car. I believe the track warranty would be void in my case because I compete in time trials. If the Z/28 wasn't so pricey, I'd consider it. But even if I got one, I'd have to dump some money into it- racing seats, roll bar, Etc. I'd probably go bigger on the aero as well. So starting with a stripped SS 1LE seemed like the right thing to do.

I am surprised no one has brought this up for diagnosing what is wrong.

1) Check oil. Is is milky. (Coolant in oil.)

2) Check coolant for signs of oil or black soot.

Both will are very easy and will give sign of head gasket or other failures that allow mixing of fluids.

3) This I would do ASAP. Pull your spark plugs and check them. A wet plug will give you an idea on which cylinder has the issue. Smell the wet plug. Wet from coolant will smell sweet. Oil smells like burnt oil.

Little more advanced.

4) Next I would do a cylinder leakdown test. New built motor should be very even.

As for the knock / tick. Not an encouraging thing. Just a very loose wild guess. I am going to say broken piston ring/ piston. The tick/ knock could be piston slap. The smoke would be due to pressurizing the crank case and pushing oil out pass seals and PVC system under WOT. The oil drips on the headers and you have smoke. On decel the opposite would occur and the cylinder would foul with oil. The spark plug would foul out and this would cause the miss.

If this is the case hopefully the cylinder is not scored to bad. Just rehone the bore/ new rings and maybe a new piston. Not too bad.

Just my armchair mechanic diagnosis.

Interested in hearing what is wrong. Suck that you had the issue.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by Pro Stock John

Yeah you can get a coolant smell and even oil smells after major top-end work, stuff does spill.

If you only down 1/2 cup on coolant doesn't sound like that was the problem, just thinking out loud.

Did you check around your oil cooler? Mine broke, the actual housing, and oil would just pour out if I drove the car. I got mine fixed under warranty but I bought all the parts to delete it from the car. Though in your case, you'd want some sort of oil cooler (or do you already have one?)?

There is oil around the oil cooler, which comes on the 1LE. I'll take a closer look when I return from work tonight. Oil is all over, blown around by the high track speeds so it's hard to figure out the source.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by BlackinBlack

I am surprised no one has brought this up for diagnosing what is wrong.

1) Check oil. Is is milky. (Coolant in oil.)

2) Check coolant for signs of oil or black soot.

Both will are very easy and will give sign of head gasket or other failures that allow mixing of fluids.

3) This I would do ASAP. Pull your spark plugs and check them. A wet plug will give you an idea on which cylinder has the issue. Smell the wet plug. Wet from coolant will smell sweet. Oil smells like burnt oil.

Little more advanced.

4) Next I would do a cylinder leakdown test. New built motor should be very even.

As for the knock / tick. Not an encouraging thing. Just a very loose wild guess. I am going to say broken piston ring/ piston. The tick/ knock could be piston slap. The smoke would be due to pressurizing the crank case and pushing oil out pass seals and PVC system under WOT. The oil drips on the headers and you have smoke. On decel the opposite would occur and the cylinder would foul with oil. The spark plug would foul out and this would cause the miss.

If this is the case hopefully the cylinder is not scored to bad. Just rehone the bore/ new rings and maybe a new piston. Not too bad.

Just my armchair mechanic diagnosis.

Interested in hearing what is wrong. Suck that you had the issue.

Good stuff, thanks for the insights. Yes, first thing I checked was condition of oil and coolant. Both look clean and normal.

I'll pull the plugs tomorrow eve and report back.

I'm trying to decide if I should figure out what went wrong prior to giving it back to the engine builder. I hope he has integrity to do the right thing, but if it was caused by their goof, then he has an incentive to look the other way if he finds something that was not done right. It's killing me that he can't look at the car for a couple of weeks. Not only the anticipation of the cost but I need to get back in the NASA points race.

[Pro Stock John]

I would not road race with the factory oil cooler if yours is leaking. Mine would lose a quart in no time at all.

You could just source another shortblock. But I'd want to look at the bores on your current one to see what went amiss.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by Pro Stock John

I would not road race with the factory oil cooler if yours is leaking. Mine would lose a quart in no time at all.

You could just source another shortblock. But I'd want to look at the bores on your current one to see what went amiss.

Thanks John, I'll be looking into ways to protect the engine such as a better cooler.

I just spoke with the engine builder, he sounds like he'll treat me right. If the failure was caused by his work or parts, he'll eat the cost. Now comes the long painful wait as his shop is moving, so he won't be able to look at it for a couple of weeks.

[BlackinBlack]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

Thanks John, I'll be looking into ways to protect the engine such as a better cooler.

I just spoke with the engine builder, he sounds like he'll treat me right. If the failure was caused by his work or parts, he'll eat the cost. Now comes the long painful wait as his shop is moving, so he won't be able to look at it for a couple of weeks.

Did he do the tune on the motor too? If so that should make for one point to deal with on what caused the failure. Unless it was just bad luck. Race enough and parts break even right out of the box. Lot of NASCAR motors died this weekend. Even when you spend that kind of cash stuff happens.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by BlackinBlack

Did he do the tune on the motor too? If so that should make for one point to deal with on what caused the failure. Unless it was just bad luck. Race enough and parts break even right out of the box. Lot of NASCAR motors died this weekend. Even when you spend that kind of cash stuff happens.

Yes he tuned it. I thought of Danica and others that have been plagued by engine failures this year. Yep, shit happens, hoping this isn't going to cost an arm, a leg and one of the family jewels

[Nor Cal ZL1]

Oil leaking is indicating a pressurization of the lower crankcase, if no other reason seems to be apparent. I would pull the plugs and look down into the cylinders with a snake camera. Miluakee has a reasonable one at Home Depot. I would also remove the valve covers and look for anything like broken valve springs or dropped valve. Going out on a limb I would say you dropped a valve and knocked a hole in a piston, or ran lean and burned a hole in a piston. I would consider that you dont have a hole in the block to be a good thing. Best of luck on your discovery. Hope you get it going asap.

[TBone]

Bummer to read this Todd, hope it all works out for you.

T.