Which first gen. Camaro was top dog?

[chevy454]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

My friend, you are definately barking up the wrong tree this time!! Have I ever ridden in one? You bet your butt I have since I bought one new in '69 and drove it for a number of years. Can't beat the torque of a BB on the strip? I guess you haven't seen any of the D/S Z/28 record holders scaring the bejesus out of BBs and sometimes beating them. Do I need to post some of the current D/S videos yet again to let you see their under ten and a half second runs around 125mph? None of the first gen. Z/28 owners back in the day was worried about SS396 Camaros, they were not a real issue, the 325 hp and 350 hp versions were absolutely no issue, the 375 hp version made it a driver's race. The real thrust of my post is not so much what you or I think, it is what Chevrolet seemed to imply in their own ad copy, go back and read it again.
Clyde

Tell me, exactly *which* 396 Camaros are D/S legal?

My old man was a '69 Z owner back in the day, and there's a reason he switched to solid lifter BBC's...

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

I have posted many times on these forums that the 396/325hp and the 396/350hp were no match for the Z/28 and the 396/375hp made it a driver's race.
Clyde

That's why I posted this as confirmation. Where are he naysayers now???

Another interesting point is that with all the safety standards added today's cars are not that much heavier.

[LOWDOWN]

"History" has a way of glossing over what was FACT, "back in the day".

Fact: A COPO 9561 with L72 427 sold for less dough than an SS396-L78/375hp...but, sadly, the vast majority of dealers didn't know about 'em, or stock 'em. Less than 1000 built. All-time bargain, all-time lust factor...and I wish I hadn't passed on a $7,000 example in '85!

Fact: A COPO 9560 with ZL1 427 was made of an even rarer alloy called "unobtainium". 50% more $$$$ than a "factory" Hemi Cuda/Dart circa '68, and half as many made. 69 total. Some of those languished into the '70s, and were only sold after engine transplants. The "ultimate Camaro"...that almost no one wanted, new!

Fact: "Off the showroom floor", a '68-'69 Z/28 was highly regarded...by EVERYONE! Quickest? No. Fastest? No. Best-handling? Yes. Image? Yes. Desirability? The current number of '69 Camaro Z/28s faaaar exceeds the actual number built...which was about 20,000. Which meets/exceeds ALL factory-built '69 Big Block Camaros...

Fact: When introduced in late-'66, after the brochures were printed/shipped, the '67 Z/28 was essentially a COPO in that almost no one knew about it. 602 sold. Put into the '68 brochure, a-w-a-y went sales...not from word of mouth, but from public knowledge/acceptance. And Dealers started stockin' them. Wonders what a lil exposure will do...

Fact: The Big Block SS396, in 325 hp and 375 hp versions, were also late arrivals for the '67 Model Year...but, being available with Air and, particularly, Automatic (in 325 hp form, both) made these more "saleable" in Dealers' minds. A nod to "history" that has been adopted by GM with the coming ZL1..."lessons learned".

Fact: A Gen-1 Camaro SS396/325 hp with Automatic and Air weighed...are you ready for it?...as much as a Gen-5 1SS...3850 lbs.

"History..."

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by chevy454

Tell me, exactly *which* 396 Camaros are D/S legal?

My old man was a '69 Z owner back in the day, and there's a reason he switched to solid lifter BBC's...

And just exactly where did I say that any 396 Camaros were D/S legal (I personally don't know if any are or not)? You are taking two different statements and merging them together. Can I show you a D/S Camario racing a 396 Camaro at the strip? Yep, don't even have to be in the same class for that to happen. You can find an example or two on YouTube.
Clyde

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by chevy454

Tell me, exactly *which* 396 Camaros are D/S legal?

My old man was a '69 Z owner back in the day, and there's a reason he switched to solid lifter BBC's...

And here's an example for you:

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

"We'll start with our strongest. Z/28 Camaro." That tells me that Chevrolet considered the Z/28 to be the top dog, that's good enough for me!
Clyde

Good enough for me as well!

[chevy454]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

And here's an example for you:

You do realize that the 396 Camaro in the other lane was over a tenth quicker and had 3+ mph on Jerry's Z, right (while carrying almost 200 more pounds)? Notice how Jerry gets tree'd then run down on the big end...

I'm not sure exactly which year that video is from, but if it's from the 2010 Dutch I believe Ficacci's 396 Camaro had about 3 tenths or so on MacNeish...

[Shu71]

"top dog" is a little broad really. Top dog at the strip or on the road course? The Z/28 was a purpose built car so GM could compete in TransAm and in order to do this it had to be sold to the public. GM wanted a lightweight car they could put a 302 cubic inch limited engine in and sell to the public so to qualify as legal for TransAm. In stock form it ran well. Add to it (if you ordered them, the headers, cross ram dual quad intake and carb, and cam which were dealer installed items and it it ran really well. However, it was by no means a COPO 9561 or 9560 killer at the drag strip. The COPO cars 13.5 and 13.1 second cars whereas the Z28 was a high 14 to low 15 second car in stock form. The ad you posted is just that, an ad which is used to persuade sales. In that ad, yes GM was trying to make the Z28 sound like it was the baddest of the bad. In some ways, like on the road courses it performed exactly as they planned. It got a TON of recognition from it's spotlight in TransAm and that is why it sold well (better than the COPO's) and was easy to persuade buyers to think it was the best. So was it top dog? Well in terms of sales against the other potential top dogs (COPO) then yes it sold more. But if your top dog is strickly performance, then I'd vote the COPO's were the top dog.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Shu71

"top dog" is a little broad really. Top dog at the strip or on the road course? The Z/28 was a purpose built car so GM could compete in TransAm and in order to do this it had to be sold to the public. GM wanted a lightweight car they could put a 302 cubic inch limited engine in and sell to the public so to qualify as legal for TransAm. In stock form it ran well. Add to it (if you ordered them, the headers, cross ram dual quad intake and carb, and cam which were dealer installed items and it it ran really well. However, it was by no means a COPO 9561 or 9560 killer at the drag strip. The COPO cars 13.5 and 13.1 second cars whereas the Z28 was a high 14 to low 15 second car in stock form. The ad you posted is just that, an ad which is used to persuade sales. In that ad, yes GM was trying to make the Z28 sound like it was the baddest of the bad. In some ways, like on the road courses it performed exactly as they planned. It got a TON of recognition from it's spotlight in TransAm and that is why it sold well (better than the COPO's) and was easy to persuade buyers to think it was the best. So was it top dog? Well in terms of sales against the other potential top dogs (COPO) then yes it sold more. But if your top dog is strickly performance, then I'd vote the COPO's were the top dog.

Ask GM if they'd like to develop a very low volume vehicle that, in 40 years, will be "lusted" by restorers/collectors OR would they rather build a much-higher volume vehicle that people THINK is "all that and a bag of chips"...and vote with their wallets to buy as many as they possibly can at "profit$" greater than all those image cars combined and then some, and I believe you'll find your answer...quickly!

BTW, I believe the original premise, here, was RPO, not SPO (COPO) versions. No COPOs...hell, not even an L78...in the brochures... They were a genrally well-guarded secret to almost everyone. The local dealer was adament that no such 427 Camaro existed!

Putting more cubes in an equal-weight drag car generally means more possible power...ergo, a Big Block should outrun a mini-block 302 in "fortified" fashion. But a Z/28, in '69 off the showroom floor, enjoyed a better balance of weight (fr/rr) and at least 200 fewer pounds at the Curb. Showroom Stock, the "average" test times for RPO'd '69 Camaros would favor the L78 over the Z/28 over the other two also-rans...

IIRC my brother's then-new L78 '69 Nova, on E70/14s, ran a best of 13.85...well-tuned, unmodified, after many "laps" of practise...and my '68 Z/28 ran a best of 14.40 on E70/15s, comparably. Same strip...same 4.10s (the max gear for Pure Stock, locally). In '69, the Nova ran B/PS and the Zapper ran F/PS, just so you know what NHRA was thinkin'.

[LOWDOWN]

Addendum:

I recall a late '69 issue of Hot Rod Magazine where a GM-supplied Z/28 "tester" was balanced/blueprinted/heads cc'd, headers, 4.88s, 7" slicks, front skinnies, carb "scienced"/jetted...an "optimized" but streetable/legal Stock Eliminator 302 4bbl car. Results: about a 1/4 second off the then-National Record for F/Stock, running actual (corrected) 12.60s (?)...IIRC. COPO L72s ran A/Stock, L78s ran B/Stock, and their records would have been at/under 12.00s, at that time.

Today's Stock Eliminator, what with "factory" Mustang FRs 'n such, bears NO resemblance to the Stock-class cars of '69. Back then, showroom iron (no body-in-white one-offs) was mandatory, as were 7" tires and very restricted upgrades.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by chevy454

You do realize that the 396 Camaro in the other lane was over a tenth quicker and had 3+ mph on Jerry's Z, right (while carrying almost 200 more pounds)? Notice how Jerry gets tree'd then run down on the big end...

I'm not sure exactly which year that video is from, but if it's from the 2010 Dutch I believe Ficacci's 396 Camaro had about 3 tenths or so on MacNeish...

And your point would be?? My point was that the 302 came damn close, so much for all of the superiority of the Big Block! If the BBs were "all that", then that little 302 shouldn't have been anywhere close. If you assume all of the Z/28 people are idiots and know nothing about performance, facts, and history, then you will continue to argue with us. That video was a 10.60 from MacNeish, his D/S record set last year was 10.45 somewhere around 127mph. What difference does it make that the 396 was carrying almost 200 more pounds, that's the penalty of having a big block. Grow up!!
Clyde

[Fraxum]

Back in the day was no different than now. At the test and tune nights at Atco I see Mustang GT 500s running high thirteens. Back in the day you had bad drivers too and terrible tires. The big block cars with the extra weight up front were especially handicapped.

I can tell you L78 Camaros had no trouble with Z28s with stickys on both. Of course for me I was spending my nights at Front Street in Philly and not at the track. Even the 350 Hp hydraulic cammed 396s ran hard with LTs, tires, and carb upgrade. There were very few factory Camaro 427s around but of course they would have been even faster.

But this still does not take anything away from the Z28. It was a better all around HiPo car than the big block Camaros. The Z28 mystique is why we are all here. We do not want ZL-1 overkill. Just a fast, simple, as light as possible, NA car with track ability. I am not knocking the ZL-1 by the way, it is very cool.

Those of you defending the Z28 I am with you. But it did not rule the street. Most of the motor-heads back in the day were much more impressed with big block solid lifter Chevrolet power. Sounds like now too doesn't it?

[chevy454]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

BTW, I believe the original premise, here, was RPO, not SPO (COPO) versions. No COPOs...hell, not even an L78...in the brochures... They were a genrally well-guarded secret to almost everyone. The local dealer was adament that no such 427 Camaro existed!

Don't you wish your dealer had seen this, then?



Other than maybe the 'Vettes, Chevrolet's ad department SUCKED...and pretty much still does. Ford and especially Mopar weren't afraid to let the world know what was available, but Chevrolet made you dig for the good stuff.

Originally Posted by wildpaws

And your point would be?? My point was that the 302 came damn close, so much for all of the superiority of the Big Block! If the BBs were "all that", then that little 302 shouldn't have been anywhere close. If you assume all of the Z/28 people are idiots and know nothing about performance, facts, and history, then you will continue to argue with us. That video was a 10.60 from MacNeish, his D/S record set last year was 10.45 somewhere around 127mph. What difference does it make that the 396 was carrying almost 200 more pounds, that's the penalty of having a big block. Grow up!!
Clyde

"Came damn close"???? Do they give trophies for that, lol?!

You were the one that *repeatedly* posted that it was a driver's race between an L78 and a Z/28, and then you post a video of a D/S Z getting outran on the drag strip by a similarly equipped B/S L78 Camaro...Jerry will be flattered to see what you think of his driving I'm sure!

The extra 200 pounds plus the 3mph higher trap speed shows the 396 has a lot more horsepower than the 302, probably to the tune of 75-100hp more...the great thing about less weight, though, is that you don't have to tune it!

And *I* never assumed all of the "Z/28 people are idiots" (my dad owned a '69 Z for many years when I was younger), that one's on you...

[2cnd chance]

All around performance drivers car Z28 wins.

1/4 mile only SS 396/375 wins (just barely see top of page).

Give me a car that is very good at everything any day!