Autocross....equipment and mod questions

[Burt]

Planted and one or two other companies make seat brackets for our cars, but I didn't see any that mentioned re-mounting the stock seat. Another user here said there was a way to modify the existing brackets, but didn't say how. While I can definitely make the stock setup work, I'd really like an extra 3/4"-1" of room as well. I might not have to compromise at all then.

[clarkkent]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

SA helmets are also designed in anticipation of multiple hits, as an occupant could well be bouncing around inside a caged car (or just against the roof structure right above the side window) before it all comes to rest. A bike helmet is more intended for one big hit.

Back when I was autocrossing, my helmet used to pick up scuffs from time to time, so there was fairly frequent contact against the plastic coverings even in maneuvers well short of crash intensity.

Norm

Thanks for the info

Originally Posted by Burt

Planted and one or two other companies make seat brackets for our cars, but I didn't see any that mentioned re-mounting the stock seat. Another user here said there was a way to modify the existing brackets, but didn't say how. While I can definitely make the stock setup work, I'd really like an extra 3/4"-1" of room as well. I might not have to compromise at all then.

Here's the thread from a few years ago where this came up. Supposedly someone at carID was able to get a bracket that would work? From a 2001 it seems maybe? http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=349641&page=2

[Burt]

Interesting. I pm'd the user to get some more details.

[clarkkent]

I did too haha.

Nobody else should PM him and we'll report back, so he doesn't come back to like 50 PM's lol

[KaBoom1701]

Originally Posted by Nick S

Biggest mod is....the NUT behind the wheel! Seat Time...Seat Time...Seat Time!! I know a lot of people don't believe it but if you consistently show up at Autocross events and leave your car just the way it is you WILL improve if you are actually trying to learn and improve your driving.

I look at it like this. If I gave my car to another really experience Autocrosser that was experienced with the 5th Gen and they were able to post times that were 3, 4, or 5 seconds faster than I can, then I have not learned how to use the car to it's fullest potential in it's current state. So why spend money on parts when what I really need to do is spend more money on track time and autocross time to get better myself.

I've been autocrossing for about 3 years now in my 1LE. There is a local guy that drives a 2013 Challenger SRT8 and he is a very good driver in that car. He was always 2 to 3 seconds faster than me. And he was on stock OEM tires, did not play around with air pressure settings or any of that. He just showed up each time, ran the car, drove it home. That's it. No special alignment or anything. So according to all the reviews I should be able to be faster than him base on the car capabilities and especially the weight advantage (one of the few times a 5th gen has a weight advantage!). So I just kept telling myself that until I can consistently put faster times than him down I know I'm not reaching the full potential of the car and I need to improve myself first before buying parts. The last autocross now I finally was able to put faster times down. I was about .6 seconds faster than the Challenger. This was only one event and one course layout. So if by the end of the season I am consistently putting faster times than him down I'll know I've actually improved my skills.

Just trying to help you focus on what will really help you the most if you are just starting out. And once you do improve your skills it's a lot more rewarding showing up in your stock Camaro and beating people that show up with cars that have $1000's in mods and they run slower times than you do. It's especially fun when they come up to you and ask you what mods you have done to run faster times and you say "None". And then they walk away asking how they could not run faster times than you when they have all these mods and you are stock. Answer...the NUT behind the wheel!

And I'm not saying that I think I'm a great driver. I'll be the first to admit that I still have a lot of learning to do. But it's nice to know I am improving with more seat time.

Great post. We'll said. I went from a 13' V6 and learned my way up the the advanced group on track days.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by EmeryZ28

I did my first autocross last weekend and loved it, I plan to do more and even some track days down at Sebring eventually. My Camaro has been a fun car for almost a year now( no longer a DD), so I am looking to get more into the performance driving. I know the 2011 SS is a bit of a pig and not the best choice, but it is paid for and I like it, so it will be my "racer"

so here are my questions..

first, I used a loaner helmet at the autox and while that was great, it was a pretty fat bulbous helmet and even with the seat all the way down and me being only 5'8, with the damn low ceiling in a sunroof car, when I got in a good driving position, my head hit the ceiling. So I had to lean back more than I would have liked. What helmets are you guys using that fit in our squashed no headroom cars? also driving gloves, I was looking at some Alpine Stars karting gloves(I also do some karting), what gloves are you guys using and like that are reasonable priced?

As far as handling mods, I have a BMR STB, 1" BMR springs and 275 upfront and 315 meats in the back. I am not looking for an overhaul and I have plenty of tread life left, so I wont be changing tires soon.

as far as a bushing kit( not the $400+ package some places offer) what simple suspension bushing kit is the most recommended?

sway bars? I have read the 2011 are inadequate compared to the 2013-2015. Who offers the best upgrade package?

the BMR subframe connector is reasonable priced, do you recommend that?


thanks!

You can't beat the driver mod. Listen to them.

You did change your wheels and tires and are running 275/315 staggered setup with the old style rear bar. The smoothest driver is going to experience a lot of push, understeer. The cheapest fix is to find a takeoff 1LE or ZL1 rear 28mm bar and get a set of new OE lower rear control arms. Your 2011 Camaro will be much easier to drive. MUCH. If you want to see even greater change, my 27mm front and 32mm bars.

There is much more you can do and change. None of them will have as big an impact as sway bars with your 275/315 setup.

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by Nick S

Biggest mod is....the NUT behind the wheel! Seat Time...Seat Time...Seat Time!! I know a lot of people don't believe it but if you consistently show up at Autocross events and leave your car just the way it is you WILL improve if you are actually trying to learn and improve your driving.

I look at it like this. If I gave my car to another really experience Autocrosser that was experienced with the 5th Gen and they were able to post times that were 3, 4, or 5 seconds faster than I can, then I have not learned how to use the car to it's fullest potential in it's current state. So why spend money on parts when what I really need to do is spend more money on track time and autocross time to get better myself.

I've been autocrossing for about 3 years now in my 1LE. There is a local guy that drives a 2013 Challenger SRT8 and he is a very good driver in that car. He was always 2 to 3 seconds faster than me. And he was on stock OEM tires, did not play around with air pressure settings or any of that. He just showed up each time, ran the car, drove it home. That's it. No special alignment or anything. So according to all the reviews I should be able to be faster than him base on the car capabilities and especially the weight advantage (one of the few times a 5th gen has a weight advantage!). So I just kept telling myself that until I can consistently put faster times than him down I know I'm not reaching the full potential of the car and I need to improve myself first before buying parts. The last autocross now I finally was able to put faster times down. I was about .6 seconds faster than the Challenger. This was only one event and one course layout. So if by the end of the season I am consistently putting faster times than him down I'll know I've actually improved my skills.

Just trying to help you focus on what will really help you the most if you are just starting out. And once you do improve your skills it's a lot more rewarding showing up in your stock Camaro and beating people that show up with cars that have $1000's in mods and they run slower times than you do. It's especially fun when they come up to you and ask you what mods you have done to run faster times and you say "None". And then they walk away asking how they could not run faster times than you when they have all these mods and you are stock. Answer...the NUT behind the wheel!

And I'm not saying that I think I'm a great driver. I'll be the first to admit that I still have a lot of learning to do. But it's nice to know I am improving with more seat time.

This post reminded me of a funny story that sums up this point pretty well.

About 3 years ago, I had a Scion FRS that I bought for doing autocross in Huntsville, AL. I lived about 5 miles from the parking lot where it was done so I never missed an event.

One day, this kid showed up with an FRS with KW V3 coilovers, 18x8 Enkei wheels, Willwood BBK, Toyo tires, header, full exhaust, tune, intake, tower bar, sway bars, carbon fiber-backed racing seats, and a removed rear seat.

This was the kid's first time doing autocross and after he finished making fun of my automatic FRS he asked what I had done to my car. I told him it was completely stock except for my pads and a cat back.

Much to his surprise I was 4 seconds faster than his best time of the day. He never came back to autocross after that day.

The moral of this story is that there isn't a mod on Earth that will make up for lack of skill/talent/practice behind the wheel. I've seen it too many times where someone will mod the living hell out of their car without understanding why. This tends to set a false expectation that this will automatically make you faster around a course and if that expectation is not met, the disappointment can be pretty severe.

[JusticePete]

A well setup car will make you faster around a road course than a poorly setup car with the same driver. That is not to say a a bad driver in a great car will beat a great driver in a bad car.

[parkerss]

Originally Posted by Nick S

Biggest mod is....the NUT behind the wheel! Seat Time...Seat Time...Seat Time!! I know a lot of people don't believe it but if you consistently show up at Autocross events and leave your car just the way it is you WILL improve if you are actually trying to learn and improve your driving.

I look at it like this. If I gave my car to another really experience Autocrosser that was experienced with the 5th Gen and they were able to post times that were 3, 4, or 5 seconds faster than I can, then I have not learned how to use the car to it's fullest potential in it's current state. So why spend money on parts when what I really need to do is spend more money on track time and autocross time to get better myself.

I've been autocrossing for about 3 years now in my 1LE. There is a local guy that drives a 2013 Challenger SRT8 and he is a very good driver in that car. He was always 2 to 3 seconds faster than me. And he was on stock OEM tires, did not play around with air pressure settings or any of that. He just showed up each time, ran the car, drove it home. That's it. No special alignment or anything. So according to all the reviews I should be able to be faster than him base on the car capabilities and especially the weight advantage (one of the few times a 5th gen has a weight advantage!). So I just kept telling myself that until I can consistently put faster times than him down I know I'm not reaching the full potential of the car and I need to improve myself first before buying parts. The last autocross now I finally was able to put faster times down. I was about .6 seconds faster than the Challenger. This was only one event and one course layout. So if by the end of the season I am consistently putting faster times than him down I'll know I've actually improved my skills.

Just trying to help you focus on what will really help you the most if you are just starting out. And once you do improve your skills it's a lot more rewarding showing up in your stock Camaro and beating people that show up with cars that have $1000's in mods and they run slower times than you do. It's especially fun when they come up to you and ask you what mods you have done to run faster times and you say "None". And then they walk away asking how they could not run faster times than you when they have all these mods and you are stock. Answer...the NUT behind the wheel!

And I'm not saying that I think I'm a great driver. I'll be the first to admit that I still have a lot of learning to do. But it's nice to know I am improving with more seat time.

[Spitfil2e]

I would listen to Justice Pete... He basically wrote the road course book on the 5th gen. The engineers at GM used his offsets for the z/28. He is the man and will never let you go the wrong way. The first mod I did was his bigger rear bar on my 11, and it made a huge difference. Don't get me wrong it still wants to understeer, but it helped a ton. Rear end is so much more planted.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

A well setup car will make you faster around a road course than a poorly setup car with the same driver. That is not to say a a bad driver in a great car wit will beat a great driver is a bad car.

True . . . sort of.

It's probably best to avoid developing the car too quickly before the driver has at least started to crowd its OE limits. Or at least OE-level limits in general, should a driver start his track day life out at the Camaro level.


Norm

[Pete G]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

A well setup car will make you faster around a road course than a poorly setup car with the same driver. That is not to say a a bad driver in a great car wit will beat a great driver is a bad car.

WELL PUT

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

True . . . sort of.

It's probably best to avoid developing the car too quickly before the driver has at least started to crowd its OE limits. Or at least OE-level limits in general, should a driver start his track day life out at the Camaro level.


Norm

I get the driver mod. Hands down seat time, learning how to read a course, drive the line and car control, the Driver Mod is the most valuable mod. The idea that we have to learn in bad cars, slow cars, stock cars is something I take issue with. If I can afford a C7 Z06 Carbon or a McLaren as my first performance car and want to start autocrossing...

When people buy these high end performance cars, many come with a factory delivery, handling course and road course time. They drive the same extreme high performance cars they just bought, regardless of experience level at these training events.

If I want to mod my Camaro to the max and go run AC what is the harm? I take the same lessons, I learn the same things, the driver mod is still the primary mod. My progression as a driver in a well setup car will be the same progression as it would be in a stock car, but I get to drive the the car I WANT to drive.

There is almost a condescending view from some established members in the AC community that I think limits participation in events. We altered the AC experience at Camaro5FEST five events ago. We tossed the SCCA rule book to the side and made CamaroCross easy. Our first event we had 1 SCCA autocrosser out of every 10 participants at best. Now we have more SCCA Camaro people at our events than non. We put a lot of people into the SCCA, the vast majority with highly modified Camaros. We put up hundreds of extra cones and chalked lines to make the course easy to follow for a beginner. We set up at least one high speed run to give the event a 'thrill'. We give them as many runs as we can squeeze into the time allowed. We provide instructors and allow ride-a-longs. We put experts out with stupid fast prepared cars and take people out in them. There are still four or five cones that make the difference to the 'expert' running and they know that the easy to follow course isn't the easy to be FTD course.

It isn't a question of Driver Mod vs Car Mod. It isn't about the purity of the experience. It is, in my mind, a simple question of what toy the owner wants to play with on the autocross course and drive on the street. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Norm Peterson]

Trust me, Pete, I'm no fan of SCCA's picky rulesets. Never have been. Mostly I just ignored them completely, built the car I wanted to drive on a daily basis, and when I autocrossed it I simply ran it wherever it fell. Never really had any desire to chase the National scene (I did a couple years of that sort of thing with bicycle BMX 30 years ago, with a modicum of success and an equipment tweak I only once saw anything similar to).

I'm really speaking to the drivers who have had no structured cornering-oriented hard driving experience whatsoever, and this is something I have to assume is the case unless there are any obvious notes to the contrary. The average HP-oriented enthusiast is going to make predictable mistakes, and it is my belief that these need to be eliminated with a car that gives them a little more warning than a car that remains more linear . . . up until it doesn't, which will occur with less warning and at a level beyond what its driver's skill set can support.

It's hard once you've got the experience to look back and visualize what it felt like before your first event when you had no basis in experience whatsoever to work from. I know I can't do that any more, not all the way back, not by a long shot.

But a better source than just my opinion might be a poll among experienced instructors as to where they think the average zero-experience track day driver should start out at in terms of equipment and modification level. OP did mention track days as well as autocross, but I think that even autocross instructors would rather see new students start out in cars that are closer to stock.


Norm