Well, It looks like the government won't help GM

[marticus24]

I'm not even going to reply, but will say that this thread has been very interesting.

[xl1200r]

Originally Posted by USAFJeeper

Bailing out private industry is bad. Do you really want Democrats to own GM? I am against a bailout for anyone. I pay my bills, I save money, I have excellent credit. Why in the hell are my tax dollars going to bail out anyone.

Because it will take less of your tax dollars to keep GM afloat than it will to support the millions of jobless folks trying to make ends meet living off government programs.

Politics aside, I'm not fan of the Dems, and think businesses should rise and fall on their own two feet. But in this case, a business falling would hurt ME, someone who is in no way connected to it. If GM falls, we go into what will be the worst recession since WWII. Saving GM is good for EVERYONE, as bad a taste that leaves in your mouth.

[detroitboy]

There is no other industry that can be created in this country that would provide as many jobs as we are talking about losing here. Add up the numbers....the most bang the government can get for their buck is to help out GM.
If help does not arrive the ripple effects throughout the country will leave everyone saying later "we should have helped GM".
Additionally.....all cars will have to be replaced eventually. There is a guaranteed market for GM products. Consumers can only put off replacing their vehicles for a certain amount of time. When it comes time for everyone to replace their cars do you want to see all the profits from that enterprise go to Japan? Do you actually think that the Japanese companies will not raise their prices when they have the only product on the market?
Yea..I know...Chrysler and Ford are still "out there". But for how long if GM falls? The Japanese companies can undercut the prices for a couple years, force Chrysler and Ford out of business and take over the world market. We would then be at their mercy with everyone saying "oh no....how could this have happened?"
Wake up people....letting GM crash will affect every aspect of our economy from coast to coast and we will never recover from it.

[Evotion]

Originally Posted by detroitboy

There is no other industry that can be created in this country that would provide as many jobs as we are talking about losing here. Add up the numbers....the most bang the government can get for their buck is to help out GM.
If help does not arrive the ripple effects throughout the country will leave everyone saying later "we should have helped GM".
Additionally.....all cars will have to be replaced eventually. There is a guaranteed market for GM products. Consumers can only put off replacing their vehicles for a certain amount of time. When it comes time for everyone to replace their cars do you want to see all the profits from that enterprise go to Japan? Do you actually think that the Japanese companies will not raise their prices when they have the only product on the market?
Yea..I know...Chrysler and Ford are still "out there". But for how long if GM falls? The Japanese companies can undercut the prices for a couple years, force Chrysler and Ford out of business and take over the world market. We would then be at their mercy with everyone saying "oh no....how could this have happened?"
Wake up people....letting GM crash will affect every aspect of our economy from coast to coast and we will never recover from it.

Excellent point.

[RCowan]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, GM IS NOT, I REPEAT, NOT LOOKING FOR A BAILOUT. THEY SIMPLY WANT A LOAN. GET THAT INTO YOUR HEADS.

Of course that is what GM wants, but what's being proposed is something that will screw them & enthusiasts:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122660438304425269.html
"Democrats have said the legislation would include stiff conditions such as limits on executive compensation and standards for the development of fuel-efficient vehicles. "

So just imagine another generation of slow vehicles while the technology catches up with the law. Think 70s/80s emissions BS all over again. OBDIII, OBDIV, fill in the blank.

I just hope the bean counters are not running GM and that they fight for a fair deal!

[xl1200r]

The development of fuel effecient vehicles doesn't mean a halt to not-so-fuel effecient vehicles.

BTW - GM is already working on this... enter the Volt.

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by xl1200r

The development of fuel effecient vehicles doesn't mean a halt to not-so-fuel effecient vehicles.

BTW - GM is already working on this... enter the Volt.

Actually, I see the Volt being the final nail in the coffin of a "I dun wanna go Chpt. 11" GM. $40K for a car that honestly does little to no better than the failure that the Prius has become won't help them as much as the Camaro could.

IMO, they SHOULD go bankrupt. Why?

1) Shed 'bad debt' debt which hampers operations.

2) Give them an excuse to force the executives to actually take a step back and see what limbs they need to hack off to save the rest of the ill body. If they refuse, they forfeit their jobs. IF they are doing this now, then disregard 2. Keep up the good work then.

3) Chpt. 11 isn't necessarily a bad thing as many people think. What the nation really needs is an education lesson on what Chapter 11 bankruptcies do to companies. Look at United and how it sprang back from the crapper after '02.

"As of July 31, 2006, United is the world's second largest airline by revenue-passenger-miles (behind American Airlines), third-largest by total operating revenues (behind Air France-KLM and American Airlines), and fourth-largest by total passengers transported (behind American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Southwest Airlines). United has 56,000 employees and operates 433 aircraft.

On February 1, 2006, United emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection under which it had operated since December 9, 2002, the largest and longest airline bankruptcy case in the history of the industry."

Chapter 11 works people, Chapter 11 works.

4) Axe half of the stateside brands that are just redundant (Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, US Buick, GMC as a noncommercial entity). Chevrolet (No SUVs or Silverados), Cadilliac(No SUVs), and GMC(Exclusively Commercial Vehicles - SUVs go here!) would be their bread and butter units in the United States. The plants left over could be used as future production facilities for more advanced 'green' vehicles, retaining the jobs there. Others could be retooled into research plants outside of Detroit as 'Field Research/Marketing Centers' Where people could have a more active role in designing cars in the corporeal that they'd like to see in the future rather than participating online.

Over all, I am thinking that like the Aviation Industry is trying to do; the Auto Industry needs to have a civilian oversight board to help them see what the public wants which would MAKE them money rather than them always playing catch-up.

Think about it, if GM actually was ahead of the game more than it could be already, then they'd make a killing being the prophets of the auto industry rather than the likes of other overseas companies.

This is only a 21 year old brat, yammering here; mind you. So I could be gravely wrong.

*I am in no way saying Lutz or other executives in GM are bad, just that they may have their priorities crossed saving the company as as a whole this moment. Also, if we had more people like FBod...

Also, cut the Unions loose. Seriously.. this is nation wide too. All Unions in all ends of the American Workforce (Food/Commerical, UAW, Pilots Unions, Mechanics Unions) should be suspended because all it's doing IMO is more harm than good at this point rather than it has in the past. All they've become is a vessel of pride rather than the workers protection that they were designed for from the start.

[ShnOmac]

So I am sitting here reading this thread and thinking about this madness we call the economy. Most of us agree that the economy is not at its best right now and there is alot of problems with our big three. Then it struck me...... I am part of our Big 3's problem. I BOUGHT A BMW.... What if I would of bought a car from the big 3? What if we all bought a car from the big 3? We bitch and moan about the economy yet many of us do nothing to change it. Maybe we should realllllly start looking at our purchases a little more carefully before we fork over the cash. This economy has really got me thinking..... WHAT CAN I DO DIFFERENT??????? I think I am going to sale my BMW and buy a vehicle from the big 3. Hey I am only one person but its a start. Maybe we can change our economy and not have to wait for our government to figure it out for us. What if each one of us convinced 1 family member or 1 friend to buy from the big 3 instead of foreign? Maybe its to far fetched but damn it I am willing to give it a try.

:flag1:

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by shnomac77

What if I would of bought a car from the big 3? What if we all bought a car from the big 3? We bitch and moan about the economy yet many of us do nothing to change it. Maybe we should [really] start looking at our purchases a little more carefully before we fork over the cash.

Now I know we should, but several factors still hold to this day. Mainly the issue that people still can't get over the stigma that US Cars 'Suck' that was a rampant partial truth in the late 80s to the early years of the new millenium. It's just like the stigma of Made in Japan from the 50s and 60s. It wasn't until the mid 70s that Japanese cars took off (with help from the fuel crisis too).

Just now are we getting a turn around in that mindset. With GM being the leader in Green that it purposedly is, GM could become the next "1970s Honda"; as a phoenix rising from the ashes rather than a small company breaking into the big time.

[xl1200r]

Actually, I see the Volt being the final nail in the coffin of a "I dun wanna go Chpt. 11" GM. $40K for a car that honestly does little to no better than the failure that the Prius has become won't help them as much as the Camaro could.

Huh? The volt would require ZERO gasoline for 75% of America's commuters. That's loads better than a Pruis.

4) Axe half of the stateside brands that are just redundant (Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, US Buick, GMC as a noncommercial entity). Chevrolet (No SUVs or Silverados), Cadilliac(No SUVs), and GMC(Exclusively Commercial Vehicles - SUVs go here!) would be their bread and butter units in the United States. The plants left over could be used as future production facilities for more advanced 'green' vehicles, retaining the jobs there. Others could be retooled into research plants outside of Detroit as 'Field Research/Marketing Centers' Where people could have a more active role in designing cars in the corporeal that they'd like to see in the future rather than participating online.

I hate to tell you, but you're missing two things - a) some people want a CHEVY truck, not a GMC. b) Many people still want SUV, be they full-size or crossover, they want the room and flexibility.

[BeermanSS]

Prius is a failure huh? I wish GM could fail that much.

No need for Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, or GMC Light Trucks and SUV's. Its just Redundancy. But the cost to axe those brands would be high in the short term. Although it may be necessary for Long term health.

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by xl1200r

Huh? The volt would require ZERO gasoline for 75% of America's commuters. That's loads better than a Pruis.



I hate to tell you, but you're missing two things - a) some people want a CHEVY truck, not a GMC. b) Many people still want SUV, be they full-size or crossover, they want the room and flexibility.

Volt Vs Prius: Really? 65 miles on one charge? That's ideallic at most. I doubt most drivers would make it last 25 with their driving habits. I still say the technology needs to have more bugs ironed out rather than rushing it into production half assed as it is.

GMC as a commercial entity would fill just this. GMC could have a 'within the brand' luxury line in the Denali lines that could fulfill those that want the old style SUVs. I too would prefer a Silverado, but I'm being realistic in the fact that the two trucks (Sierra and Silverado) are just redundant, and it'd just fit better to lump them into the GMC line and axe the Silverado rather than having an extraneous vehicle in the Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban within a brand that is 'Green' that screams "I cans suk teh gazzes nao?"

And no, Hybrid Trucks and SUVs don't save it. It's only a sugar coating on a vehicle that is more or less the bane of GM's existence at the moment in the eyes of CAFE and the 'green is good' people that have a bit of clout in the world right now.

[nickspohn]

I was optimistic at first about the government helping GM, but for some reason I have this feeling that GM is going to go under...

[Zabo]

Originally Posted by nickspohn

I was optimistic at first about the government helping GM, but for some reason I have this feeling that GM is going to go under...

GM won't. Chapter 11 would see to that. United's rise from the ashes is a good example of this. Chapter 11 IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD PEOPLE! It's a means to help the bankrupt entity to get their ducks in a row, lose what stuff IS killing their operations, and then start MAKING money again while having the creditors off their backs.

It's only when they emerge from chapter 11 that they have to start worrying about the IRS and creditors again.

If anything it'd give GM some breathing room to get their s**t together and get that 'Green' prerogative into high gear.