08-15-2011, 11:48 PM | #1 |
Drives: 2010 IOM 2ss/RS Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SoCal, I.E.
Posts: 1,545
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better handling w/o lowering??
lowering is not an option due to GFX, but after my first auto x, i realize something needs to be done...so would new sway bars, and a strut tower brace be the ticket ( or at least help a lot?) an other ideas, the car seemed to understeer like mad, i spent the day balancing that with the throttle...which makes for a FUN day, but probably not the best way to get around.
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08-16-2011, 12:08 AM | #2 |
So Cal Race Team
Drives: 2013 Camaro Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sunny So Cal
Posts: 3,584
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Sway Bars at a minimum would help most initially, then you can go with end links, chassis brace, strut tower brace, and the list goes on.
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08-16-2011, 08:51 AM | #3 |
Pedders Street 1 kit would be a good place to start. It has inserts for the rear subframe bushings and front radius arm bushings.
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08-16-2011, 09:07 AM | #4 |
knows 2 facts about ducks
Drives: ...and they're both wrong Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The HMS Invincible
Posts: 25,072
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sway bars will be the best bang for you buck, but creating a foundation for you suspension first will make that bang even bigger in the end.
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08-16-2011, 10:34 AM | #5 |
Drives: Camaro Justice Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 20,174
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For autocross without lowering you wioll want to address the foundational stability of your 5th Gen, add sway bars and get an alignment that is well suited to autocross.
Your IRS mounts to the monocoque with four large rubber bushes. The sub-frame twists within these bushes creating an effect known as rear end step out or rear ends steer. That looseness can only be addressed by adding sub-frame inserts or sub-frame bushes. Adding sway bars before addressing the sub-frame only makes rear end step out worse. In an autocross the last thing you want to happen is the rear wheels fighting the front wheels in transition. Next would be radius bush inserts to eliminate unwanted caster changes. The OE radius bush is a hydraulically damped bush. It is liquid filled. Under load the front radius arm shift fore to aft creating unwanted caster changes a a vagueness in steering feel. Replacing the soft rubber OE snubber in the radius bush minimises caster changes and improves steering feel. Steering feels is mission critical in autocross. Sway bars are what we at Pedders consider to be the final tuning element while others see it as a first step. We firmly belive the foundation (sub-frame and radius bushes) are the place to start. For autocross you want to change the sway bar balance from a rather heavy factory understeer towards oversteer. The best way to do that is with a square wheel and tire setup. We like Forgeline 19x10.5 wheels with Bridgestone 305/30/19 RE-11s. The special offsets we use from Forgeline even the front and rear track creating a more balanced vehicle. That doesn't appear to be on your list so we'll move to sway bars. A 27mm front bar with a 32mm rear bar will have you ready for your next autocross. With or without any new parts you need to get a more autocross friendly alignment. The alignment from the factory is very conservative with more bias towards long tire life than turning corners. The best autocross alignment is so aggressive it will wear your tires rapidly. It is a zero sum game. Long tire life = average cornering. Great cornering = poor tire life. A key ratio is the relationship of front to rear camber. The ratio that we have had great success with is that the rear negative camber should be one half the front camber. An example would be Front -1 degree with the rear -.5 degree. The more you Toe OUT the front the better the turn in will be. The rear should have just a touch of toe IN. These adjustments are available to you on your 5th Gen in stock form. Caster is fixed in stock form. Caster helps return the steering wheel back on center which is obviously important in autocross. There is no adjustment from the factory for caster. Pedders does have front caster eccentric bolts which use the factory provided brackets for caster adjustment. You can discuss your alignment setting here on line or with your alignment professional using this post as a guide. Let me know if you have additional questions. |
08-16-2011, 10:08 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
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"Democracy Dies in Darkness" |
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08-16-2011, 10:14 PM | #7 |
knows 2 facts about ducks
Drives: ...and they're both wrong Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The HMS Invincible
Posts: 25,072
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Yea, totally just right click & saved that image. Thanks Pete
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08-17-2011, 07:58 AM | #8 |
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 25,179
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For autoX without lowering I would look at upgrading your sway bars, sub frame bushings, end links, differential bushings, trailing arms, and toe rods. This kind of package will address all of the major short comings of the stock set up. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any questions.
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08-17-2011, 09:01 AM | #9 |
Drives: 2010 IOM 2ss/RS Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SoCal, I.E.
Posts: 1,545
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thanks for the replies guys! will doing the things that fraxum and apex listed affect the car for everyday driving in a negative way? thank you justice, lots of good info there!
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08-17-2011, 09:25 AM | #10 |
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 25,179
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As long as you select the appropriate combination of components they will not. Of the parts I recommended the differential bushings are the one part you really need to be careful with. Going too hard can transmit a lot of noise into the cabin in some instances. When you get ready to pull the trigger hit me up and we will put together a package that will set you up for success at the autoX and still be streetable.
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08-17-2011, 10:32 AM | #11 | ||
Drives: Camaro Justice Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 20,174
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Quote:
Quote:
In late 2010 a Livernois customer had quite a bit of work done on his 5th Gen. The engine work was flawless. The suspension work created a squeak. It was a mix of Pedders and another brand. They and the client were convinced it was the Pedders bits. Livernois transported the car to Orlando (1st Class Customer Service) where I was attending PRI. I made arrangements at a local Firestone store to check out the car. The squeak was from the aftermarket trailing arms. I installed Pedders trailing arm bushes in both ends of the OE arm and replaced the aftermarket trailing arms with the Pedderised OE arms. No more squeaks and the client was pleased with the performance as well. To be clear Livernois went above and beyond taking care of thier customer. MOD4SS Build Thread Different people have different thresholds for various noises in thier cars. Endlinks are a prime example. Some companies feel that spherical equipped endlinkss are well suited to daily drivers. Pedders does not. We think your track ready 5th Gen should be virtually OE quiet. That's why we clearly label any bush or part that would increase cabin noise. We draw a clear distinction from all other Pedders parts. Our endlinks are highly efficient and absolutely guaranteed to be as quiet as an OE endlink. Where does this lead? You should address your sub-frame and radius bushes first. They are no Brainers. The next bush in order of priority would be the four toe link bushes followed by trailing arm bushes. Overall, the biggest bang for the buck bits would be sub-frame EP1200 (we struggle to keep these on the shelf) and radius bush EP6579 inserts with Solution C sway bars (27mm front and 32mm rear). All Pedders sway bars are packaged with High Efficiency Endlinks Front and Rear. These will be transformational mods for your 5th Gen. Adding more bushes or aftermarket arms will only compliment the foundation you have built. |
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08-17-2011, 11:24 AM | #12 | |
Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06 Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 3,370
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You're going to be a drastic improvement in the balance of the car with sway bars. Our rear sport bar is adjustable so you can fine tune the balance with a quick adjustment of the endlinks. There are some issues that are unique to the Camaro which could use some attention as well, specifically the subframe bushings, trailing arms and toe rods.
Our rear subframe bushings are specifically designed for long term use in Camaro's to provide true sports car handling. Replacing the factory OE subframe bushings solidly mounts the rear subframe to the chassis as has been done with the Corvette for years. You can expect a much more satisfying driving experience when the rear end is actually responding to what the chassis is doing. You can also expect the Noise/Vibration/Harshness levels to remain the same or extremely similar after install as there are still plenty points of noise isolation between the driver and the road before you get to the subframe bushings. Quote:
If it were me, I would take a moment to contact Chase. I'm sure that through his years of experience with the Camaro he's seen just about every combination of parts imaginable. He's one of our most reputable dealers and can get a setup that will perform flawlessly for your needs. |
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08-17-2011, 12:27 PM | #13 |
Drives: 2010 IOM 2ss/RS Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SoCal, I.E.
Posts: 1,545
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You mention the supersway c, but in the description it is quite clear that these are not for a daily driver...would that be an issue. Thanks again for your posts, I'm learning!
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08-17-2011, 12:36 PM | #14 | |
Drives: Camaro Justice Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 20,174
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Quote:
That said, the Solution C bars are my first choice for a 5th Gen even as a daily driver. |
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