Just a voice of Reason

[Jamie Mac]

Well I did threaten Fbodfather. He saw my sig and asked if I wanted to come over and dispatch some squirrels at his place. In one post I threatened to release more squirrels on his property if I didn't get my car soon. Lucky for him I don't have to time to trap a bunch, drive to Detroit, find his house and release them. It is still an option though


I've changed my mind. I'm sending in the squirrels just as soon as I can teach them to drive miniature black Suburbans.

Suburbans on hold. Dealer calling me back later with my VIN#

[Bart]

If someone had a written deal for MSRP, and then the dealer tried to mark it up on delivery, I agree that a phone call to an attorney is in order. But I also WANT them to post about it here. I don't want every forum member here to have to retain an attorney if they buy from this dealer. That's one of the major benefits of a discussion forum such as this. Thats why forums have preferred dealers and partners. They have proven themselves over time to the community. And the ones that have proven themselves to be misleading or unethical should also be made public here.

However....

some reasonable form of documentation should be provided by the member complaining. We just had the episode of flaming a dealer with out evidence, and there were some issues.

Which leads to another point. We can't flame, e-mail barrage or in any other way hassle a dealer, over a single post that has no proof contained within. Acts like that will destroy the reputation of this board. I can only imagine a site like Autoblog picking up our thread of trashing a dealer, then going, Oops, our bad.

[Ranger 75]

Originally Posted by Vash

To the OP.

You got a lot of balls coming in here telling people what to say and do.

Why don't you just worry about your car and not other people?

It's a discussion forum. For you to also fabricate a lie and say someone made a bomb threat to a dealer is stupid.

No member said that or would say that.

Freedom of speech and the ablity to complain about a large corporation is a good thing.

If you want a place to kiss GM's ass this is probably not it.

+2

[carguy]

[B]I Just want my Car[/B!!]

Ordered with dealer well before dealers were acepting orders .....submitted and accepted 1100 10/13/08

Bumped because of Cyber Gray..

Second car from my dealer arrived (Woulda been mine if it wasn't for that Darn Cyber Gray)

Stuck at 3000 and patiently waiting and waiting and waitng and waiting...anyway you get the idea!

I am all for Peace...Now lets get those Cars Built Before June 1....Please

[Red Hot SS]

Originally Posted by Vash

To the OP.

You got a lot of balls coming in here telling people what to say and do.

Why don't you just worry about your car and not other people?

It's a discussion forum. For you to also fabricate a lie and say someone made a bomb threat to a dealer is stupid.

No member said that or would say that.

Freedom of speech and the ablity to complain about a large corporation is a good thing.

If you want a place to kiss GM's ass this is probably not it.

THIS THIS THIS!
Man I hate how people on this forum try to tell you to shut up when you're unhappy about something. This is a place to DISCUSS the good and the bad. It seems like if you dont kiss GMs ass on here you get warned or something. That being said, respect is necesarry. But dont try to tell people what to think or how to feel.

Why are we so against these "panics de jour"? (I hate that phrase)
I personally think they serve a great purpose. Leaving no stone of this new car unturned, questioning EVERY little possible flaw. And GUESS WHAT, after all of them- the camaro has passed virtually every test. What does that tell you. Where would this world be without a little negativity and criticism? You expect EVERY thread to be this happyfest?

Also, can someone please diss Scott so the OP will leave the forum (j/k). I laughed when you posted that...honestly, we wouldnt lose any sleep.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by LadiesMan217

Nobody should be receiving vehicles that ordered prior to the R6P cutoff date before all of the R6P orders are completed. People that ordered in October (no matter WHAT place in line they are...or how many cars that dealer was allotted) should have their vehicles built before someone that ordered 2 weeks ago.

Except that would be illegal. If a dealership decided to not take any pre-orders they still get their allocated cars.

Originally Posted by Vash

To the OP.

You got a lot of balls coming in here telling people what to say and do.

Why don't you just worry about your car and not other people?

Now thats hypocrisy right there. He can't tell others what to do, yet you can tell him what to do?

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Except that would be illegal.

Prove it.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Prove it.

Here's the best I can do without having the law books in front of me. Its from Scott, I trust that his word is sufficient?

Originally Posted by fbodfather

May I suggest that you take that up with your elected officials?

We don't like it any more than you do -- and the threads that 'broke out' today are just ONE of the problems we face with allocation.

(Why do you assume WE made the rules on allocation?)

Computers are cars are two wildly different things...........

As I said in an earlier post about allocation: Go talk to the guys from Honda that went to jail because they did not follow an 'allocation' plan.

Not our choice!

If we could build "first come, first served" we'd have happy customers -- and that's what we want. Alas, we must follow the law to the letter!

and some others

Originally Posted by fbodfather

However, we cannot just place every R6P order right now – because we can’t build them all RIGHT NOW – but we WILL get them built – and we hope to have most of you behind the steering wheels of your new Camaros just as soon as possible.

And we will not violate the laws of individual states or federal law..........

Now – I know I’m going to get flamed AGAIN……..

...........and I know that some won’t believe what I’ve just written….

Originally Posted by fbodfather

We cannot build all of one dealer's cars and ignore another --

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Look -- trust me - it can't be -- it involves laws in 50 states - but rest assured that EVERY manufacturer MUST have an allocation plan in place for every vehicle line ....and it MUST be defenseable in a court of law.

I don't think I'm going to convince you -- so all I can say is: We want you as a customer and we want to KEEP you as a customer --

I did not get to where I am today by lying to people...........

With that said -- I rest my case, sir.

As I said, thats the best I can do without somehow getting my hands on the law books. If that isn't enough, could you please show me how GM can legally build pre-orders before all others.

[Whitten]

I am really glad to see all of the responses in here, I want to say this before I begin trying to answer all of these posts that I truly love this board. I think it has been the best board to date when it comes to info on the new Camaro.

All of your responses good and bad have been great. I don't care if you don't agree with me because there are many who do. The fact that you came on and griped about my post is perfectly alright and I was hoping you would to be truthful.

Furthermore I never once told people that they shouldn't or couldn't post questions comments or concerns. What would this board be good for if we couldn't share information?

That being said lets begin shall we.

Originally Posted by themossman

Quit Cryin. Leave Scott alone or I'm leaving.

That was hilarious...sorry it was so long.

Originally Posted by Vash

To the OP.

You got a lot of balls coming in here telling people what to say and do.

Why don't you just worry about your car and not other people?

It's a discussion forum. For you to also fabricate a lie and say someone made a bomb threat to a dealer is stupid.

No member said that or would say that.

Freedom of speech and the ablity to complain about a large corporation is a good thing.

If you want a place to kiss GM's ass this is probably not it.

I do have alot of balls, but never did I tell you what to say or do, just made some suggestions nor did I lie as someone much faster than I pointed out above.
I agree that freedom of speech is a great thing and have no problem with comments or concerns. People freaking out and threatening to cancel orders or giving GM ultimatiums before the problems are even given a chance to sort out...that is an issue best fixed if folks would settle a bit and let things ride a little longer than 15 minutes before hitting critical mass.

As far as kissing GM's ass goes...not really, just giving credit where it is due. Just because there have been some problems with a first year run doesn't mean that they failed or that they aren't worthy of some praise.

Originally Posted by McGruff

Yeah, I didn't read the whole thing either, yawn.

But It sounds like the OP is whining about people whining? Who cares what people talk about? YOU can choose the topics you go into, let other people talk about what they want. Lot of wasted typing IMO, this topic won't change anybody's posting habits.

So, you admit to not reading what I wrote but are clairvoyant enough to know that it won't change anything or that it was all a waste?

Originally Posted by JDBeck23

+1, nobody wants to hear your opinion... You're just as bad as the cry babies because you think everyone needs to hear your opinion so desperately, you cant help but post an enormous, and worthless thread that attempts to tell people what to do and think. ..........blah blah..and so forth.
Get over yourself. If you dont want to see people getting things off their chests... go somewhere else and spare us your inflated ego babble.

I am all for getting stuff of your chest, if you are the person going through something than by all means tell us what is going on. If you have been having issues with a dealer PLEASE tell us what is going on, however you had better be prepared to prove what you are complaining about if it is a dealer, if it is an issue with your car then by all means post it. If it is not your car but your brothers cousins mothers uncle in laws car that you heard from a friend about it having an issue please substantiate your claim before you start a thread that has the Camaro as a lemon. Nothing is less constructive than a thread that derails an entire board and then turns out to be farce.

Originally Posted by Hylton

I think the majority of members here readily accept that there are dealers who sell for more than MSRP. In fact, the whole point of having the dealer threads was to help steer people to the dealerships which sold at MSRP or less. Some members are willing to pay above MSRP and that's fine - as long as their eyes are wide open, no harm, no foul.

The alarming issue is when someone has gone into a dealership, made an agreement for MSRP and then when the car comes in, is told that it will cost them more because of "market conditions". Sure this is a legal practice but is it acceptable? Personally I don't think so and I would be surprised if someone at GM said they support this. The OP can call this issue a "panic-du-jour" all he wants but if creating threads about this practice has educated people who want to buy a new car then more power to Camaro5!

I agree with most of what you said, the only exception being that you mentioned it was legal for them to tack on a mark up after the contract is written. In truth a signed document with the agreed upon price is a binding document and that person has the right to goods or services at the price agreed upon in the document. Most of the time the dealers will just see if you will pay it.
Does this make it right...absolutely not. Does it happen...unfortunately, what can be done about it...see what I posted above.

I am not for paying any dealer markups, infact I have started a local thread pointing out such dealerships in my area. I most certainly will not be calling GM to tell them that they should do something about it unless the dealership is taking advantage of more than just myself in a breach of contract type issue.

Originally Posted by Jamie Mac

Well I did threaten Fbodfather. He saw my sig and asked if I wanted to come over and dispatch some squirrels at his place. In one post I threatened to release more squirrels on his property if I didn't get my car soon. Lucky for him I don't have to time to trap a bunch, drive to Detroit, find his house and release them. It is still an option though


I've changed my mind. I'm sending in the squirrels just as soon as I can teach them to drive miniature black Suburbans.

That was also hilarious...thank you I needed a laugh.

Originally Posted by Red Hot SS

THIS THIS THIS!
Man I hate how people on this forum try to tell you to shut up when you're unhappy about something. This is a place to DISCUSS the good and the bad. It seems like if you dont kiss GMs ass on here you get warned or something. That being said, respect is necesarry. But dont try to tell people what to think or how to feel.

Why are we so against these "panics de jour"? (I hate that phrase)
I personally think they serve a great purpose. Leaving no stone of this new car unturned, questioning EVERY little possible flaw. And GUESS WHAT, after all of them- the camaro has passed virtually every test. What does that tell you. Where would this world be without a little negativity and criticism? You expect EVERY thread to be this happyfest?

Also, can someone please diss Scott so the OP will leave the forum (j/k). I laughed when you posted that...honestly, we wouldnt lose any sleep.

Please see the above posts. Like I said in the original, I know it doesn't matter to you if I leave. I can guarantee you if things continue like they have, with unfounded rumors, members harrassing dealerships, and others making "demands or else" from Scott, he will leave and with his moving on to somewhere else so will your direct pipeline to the people at GM who really do care.

Never did I say anything about not posting issues but as I mentioned above, if it is not your car or an issue that you have seen 100% yourself why propagate a rumor that could do potential damage?

I couldn't care two you know whats about what you think of me or what you post to me, but don't do what the morons on SVT P did when Amy Boylan of Shelby Automobiles posted information concerning up coming products. She literally made a handful of posts, was lambasted by over zealous idiots who were not even in the market to buy any of their cars and stopped posting after that one thread.

Thanks to all of you for posting in here, good or bad. I always appreciate the support from those that have given it but also don't mind the criticism (or critics de jour) Sorry that was bad.

Keep um come'n guys.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Here's the best I can do without having the law books in front of me. Its from Scott, I trust that his word is sufficient?

and some others





As I said, thats the best I can do without somehow getting my hands on the law books. If that isn't enough, could you please show me how GM can legally build pre-orders before all others.

Hearsay!

[KJS]

If I waited months only to get to the dealer and have them tell me "Its yours if you pay 2, 3, 4, 5K+ more" I'd flip out and this forum would be one of the first places I'd vent.

With all due respect I don't think you've had much experience with the civil legal system if you think the solution is to "go to an attorney". It can takes months to get on a court calendar. As you are your probably aware any dealer that pulls these stunts has a law firm on retainer and they are experts on stall tactics, eventually if you're lucky they'll offer you a "settlement" to make you go away. They can delay a case for years if they have to. And you won't see the car of your dreams for a loooooooooong time - and thats not counting the time you'll wait again odering it from another dealer. Just hope there isn't a price increase by then, cause you aren't getting the early order price!

And if you want to go toe-to-toe with these dealers and their attorneys its going to cost you close to the amount they are telling you they'll release the car for. And they know that!

This forum has had an effect on THOSE MEMBERS WHO HAD A LEGITIMATE GRIPE with their dealership. You are correct, before any dealership is flamed in this forum we owe to the dealer to have all the facts documented for us to see, otherwise we will not support those members.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Hearsay!

Yes it is. Thankfully this is a internet forum and not a courtroom and I'm a moderator not a lawyer or witness. Though I wish I could get paid like a lawyer for my time on here ...

btw, still waiting for you to show how it would be legal for GM to legally do the pre-orders before others, regardless of allocation.

Anyway, back on topic

[Hylton]

btw, still waiting for you to show how it would be legal for GM to legally do the pre-orders before others, regardless of allocation.

Anyway, back on topic

I've already made the point on this forum in another thread and would be happy to discuss it with you there. It's about building sold allocations before building un-sold allocations. That's it in a nutshell. Anywyas, I really do not want to highjack the OP's thread.

[Dr Jkel]

The real problem I see with the whole Camaro Mess, boils down to one simple thing. Communication, yes boys and girls Communication. Most, if not all, people who ordered a Camaro sight unseen, except for a few pictures over the internet. We ALL loved the ar and could not wait, Still Can't, get one of these beauties. And Most of us went to a dealership plunked down our money and have waited. I was not told anything about an allocation, I was told by the dealership " If You Order it, They will Build it, and You will get it" while this may be true in some fashion it is not accurate. The BIG IF is ALLOCATION.

But just let me say this most people want to threaten, sue, yell, scream or pitch a fit, while that may work where you live it does not around here. I was being done wrong, IMO, and basically just asked for some help. No threats, nothing, humbly ask for help and the response from GM was terrific. No I haven't received my car yet and I am waiting like most, but lets be for real and grown up. That is what is wrong in this great country now, blame someone, sue someone, or talk bad about someone. What happened to being a good person? Remember no one owes you anything, problem everyone wants everything right now. Be patient and GM will come through. I would rather wait a few weeks and make sure that they have all the bugs worked out than to get my car and spend many days at the dealership having it worked on.

I have only been on this site a little while, but I can tell you that there is more helpon here and more people willing to help that you realize, all you have to do is ask. It's not what you say but how you say it.