Continued Bad News for Pontiac

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by MCPOAJ

because the supercharged one is outdated now there's a turbo'd one

But what about when the supercharged cobalt first came out?

[fbodfather]

Stovt001 --

OK -- so - tell me this: how would you meet the contractual obligations that GM has to its dealers? See-- we have this agreement that essentially says: .....Mr/Ms Dealer -- if you provide adequate capital/facilities/training/personnel -- we will provide you with vehicles that will give you a return on your investment...... Now - our plan is to combine all Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers into one location eventually -- but you can't force a dealer to give up his francise -- and you can't assign a second one in the same market based on francise laws..........so....we still have an obligation to provide a lineup of vehicles for those dealers who haven't all three francises......what would YOU do?

You can't seriously believe that EVERYONE at the top of GM is stupid or foolish --

Tell me what you would do differently with the Lambdas -- and while you're at it, I would like to see a complete cost analysis to show how you'd compete in the growing cross-over market.

(by the way -- watch what happens to the volume of the Traverse versus the other GM Entries -- you'll find that Chevy will move the iron at a much higher volume........)

Next assignment -- I'd like your estimate as to what it costs to bring a brand new vehicle to market -- as well as rebadging a vehicle such as the Equinox to Torrent..........

As to the V6 -- ever hear of the Direct Injection 3.6 in the new CTS?

Again -- I don't mean to be rude or caustic -- I'm just asking you to stop for a moment before making declarations -- you just may learn something by sitting back and asking questions -- rather than declarations.........

[smike07]

Originally Posted by stovt001

As far as the new Ford TC V6, I'm not saying it has to do with RWD, but it has to do with Ford's response to the new CAFE rules. A V6 making great power and economy? Now that is exciting. It strikes the same great balance as the I4 in the Solstice/Sky GXP, and I'd love to see GM do something like that in V6 form, then put it in a BMW 3-series size RWD performance coupe/sedan. In case the Camaro doesn't work out for me (God forbid) something like that would have been my ideal backup, but it doesn't look like we'll get that now.

Okay, what about the direct injected CTS engine? How 'bout a direct injected AFM engine with +-400 horses that gets 30 mpg? What's that? How 'bout the Volt? That one gets... well, plugged in! Who the hell cares about a V6 when you can get maximum torque the second you hit the gas! Well, whatever the case, we're all entitled to our own opinions, eh? Fortunately for us, opinions mean jack when there are facts to back whatever the opinion is arguing against.

[smike07]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Stovt001 --

As to the V6 -- ever hear of the Direct Injection 3.6 in the new CTS?

Dammit, man! You post too fast! Still, I'm sure everyone on this site would rather hear it from you.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Stovt001 --

OK -- so - tell me this: how would you meet the contractual obligations that GM has to its dealers? See-- we have this agreement that essentially says: .....Mr/Ms Dealer -- if you provide adequate capital/facilities/training/personnel -- we will provide you with vehicles that will give you a return on your investment...... Now - our plan is to combine all Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers into one location eventually -- but you can't force a dealer to give up his francise -- and you can't assign a second one in the same market based on francise laws..........so....we still have an obligation to provide a lineup of vehicles for those dealers who haven't all three francises......what would YOU do?

You can't seriously believe that EVERYONE at the top of GM is stupid or foolish --

Tell me what you would do differently with the Lambdas -- and while you're at it, I would like to see a complete cost analysis to show how you'd compete in the growing cross-over market.

(by the way -- watch what happens to the volume of the Traverse versus the other GM Entries -- you'll find that Chevy will move the iron at a much higher volume........)

Next assignment -- I'd like your estimate as to what it costs to bring a brand new vehicle to market -- as well as rebadging a vehicle such as the Equinox to Torrent..........

As to the V6 -- ever hear of the Direct Injection 3.6 in the new CTS?

Again -- I don't mean to be rude or caustic -- I'm just asking you to stop for a moment before making declarations -- you just may learn something by sitting back and asking questions -- rather than declarations.........

well said, sir, very well said

[KILLER74Z28]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Stovt001 --

Tell me what you would do differently with the Lambdas -- and while you're at it, I would like to see a complete cost analysis to show how you'd compete in the growing cross-over market.

Next assignment -- I'd like your estimate as to what it costs to bring a brand new vehicle to market -- as well as rebadging a vehicle such as the Equinox to Torrent..........

Did you want those by Friday…

[stovt001]

I've heard the dealers all demanded a Lambda, but shouldn't it end somewhere? I totally agree that the Chevy will probably move the most units, but Chevy already has too many vehicles. Bob himself said so. The problem you run into is that you either market one effectively, but in doing so you're forced to throw the rest under the bus (example: Aura and Malibu. Imagine if the Aura had a campaign as strong as the Malibu's) or you just semi-market the whole lot and then watch as your competition matches your sales numbers with a single lesser vehicle (Lambdas vs Edge). I suppose that the problem was created long ago when GM started all these brands and failed adapt to a new market environment, but really, isn't 4 versions of the same vehicle just a little excessive? Or are we to still expect Cadillac, Hummer, and Saab versions? I mean Hummer has a very limited lineup. If everyone must have a ton of model lines, certainly you must be contractually obligated to give Hummer one. Honestly, seeing as how GMC will likely be blessed with the Denali concept and from what I hear a Vue clone, perhaps the Acadia could have been skipped. I get the impression that both Saturn and GMC are positioned slightly upscale from Chevy, so I'd position the Traverse as the supreme economy version, the Outlook as a bit more upscale, and the Enclave as truly upscale. Then give GMC the Vue clone (only two models is acceptable) and the Denali concept (I know, still unconfirmed, but I think a lot of people will be surprised if it didn't happen, as everything looks pretty put together on that end). Pontiac I imagine will still keep the Torrent, Vibe, and G5 for a few more years at least. So everyone has a full lineup, Rebadging is limited to 2, 3 versions of a model maximum, and Chevy has a lineup so full the average dealership only has enough room to keep one unit of each model on hand at a given time. My point is cloning a model once is understandable. Twice can be justified using the "everyone needs a full lineup" thing, especially with a great product like the Lambdas. It just gets really hard to get 4 of them out there and give them the marketing they deserve.

Re: the 3.6DI. Good point, and as far as the high tech, powerful and efficient engine families go, here's what the lineup looks like:

I4:
Ford: 2.0L TC DI 275 hp, 280 lb/ft
GM 2.0L TC DI 260 hp, 260 lb/ft

V6
Ford: 3.5L TC DI 340 hp, 340 lb/ft
GM: 3.6L DI 300 hp, 300 lb/ft (I think?)

Sorry, but Ford wins on both rounds. GM was first and both were great, but Ford has come from behind and leapfrogged. And really, it doesn't matter much whether out V6 makes 300 hp or 340, because if we put it through the front wheels it won't be much fun. Too bad I can't afford a CTS.

Speaking of affordable, a number of people have said "well, look at the autoshows to see what GM is coming out with"

OK, lets look at that:
Hybrid Tahoe, Yukon, Sierra, and Silverado. I don't know the pricing for the trucks, but since the SUVs will be going for $60,000 or so, they mean absolutely nothing to me most GM customers in practical terms. Cool? Heck yes. But really something I can get excited about owning? Nope. Especially since as a 21 year old corporate financial analyst intern living in LA with just a fiancee to drive around I have absolutely no need for a truck.

GMC Denali concept - still unconfirmed, and see above. Likely too expensive, and no need for a truck.

Corvette ZR1 - too expensive

CTS-V - too slow...umm, no, kidding, just too expensive.

Traverse - yet another in a long line of Lambdas, and I have no need for a family car.

Seriously, all of GM's recent concepts are targeted at the Texas tycoons or people with huge families. So as my beloved smaller RWD cars are dropped from consideration in favor of more super expensive cars and clones of mom-mobiles, I'm left with the G8 (far too big) and the still promising Camaro. If something were to go wrong there, GM has nothing else for me, despite its insane amount of brands. Of course, there is always the Mazda RX8, Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart, upcoming Toyota and Honda RWD performance cars, Hyundai Genesis coupe... Basically I'm left with tons of sporty, smaller, affordable alternatives, all outside of GM.

Finally, one last note: every time word comes out that GM is dropping another proposed product due to CAFE, the phrase that comes up is "The G8 and the Camaro are still safe because they are too far along to cancel." So read between the lines there. It is only by luck of timing that we're even getting the 2 remaining affordable performance cars GM has left. If GM could have canceled them without forfeiting sunk costs, they would have. When I hear things like that, I lose confidence fast.

[Roflmao]

hmmm... I don't know what to say. But I do have a question for Scott since this is a thread he could peek at and its sort of on topic

Hey Scott, I don't know if you have seen my previous posts on the CAFE regulation crap, but I have had at least the current rules explained to me from a few people in the industry. Am I getting/giving correct information or should I shut my piehole with bad info?

here is what I said in case you want to check it out. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...?t=2769&page=6

Just checking on myself

oh and I think GM has cool stuff even minus the RWD,

[stovt001]

FWD is all well and good for compacts, even sporty compacts but try to channel 300+hp through just the front wheels and you'll understand why the real performance cars are RWD. Torque steer and understeer are not fun.

[Roflmao]

Originally Posted by stovt001

I've heard the dealers all demanded a Lambda, but shouldn't it end somewhere? I totally agree that the Chevy will probably move the most units, but Chevy already has too many vehicles. Bob himself said so. The problem you run into is that you either market one effectively, but in doing so you're forced to throw the rest under the bus (example: Aura and Malibu. Imagine if the Aura had a campaign as strong as the Malibu's) or you just semi-market the whole lot and then watch as your competition matches your sales numbers with a single lesser vehicle (Lambdas vs Edge). I suppose that the problem was created long ago when GM started all these brands and failed adapt to a new market environment, but really, isn't 4 versions of the same vehicle just a little excessive? Or are we to still expect Cadillac, Hummer, and Saab versions? I mean Hummer has a very limited lineup. If everyone must have a ton of model lines, certainly you must be contractually obligated to give Hummer one. Honestly, seeing as how GMC will likely be blessed with the Denali concept and from what I hear a Vue clone, perhaps the Acadia could have been skipped. I get the impression that both Saturn and GMC are positioned slightly upscale from Chevy, so I'd position the Traverse as the supreme economy version, the Outlook as a bit more upscale, and the Enclave as truly upscale. Then give GMC the Vue clone (only two models is acceptable) and the Denali concept (I know, still unconfirmed, but I think a lot of people will be surprised if it didn't happen, as everything looks pretty put together on that end). Pontiac I imagine will still keep the Torrent, Vibe, and G5 for a few more years at least. So everyone has a full lineup, Rebadging is limited to 2, 3 versions of a model maximum, and Chevy has a lineup so full the average dealership only has enough room to keep one unit of each model on hand at a given time. My point is cloning a model once is understandable. Twice can be justified using the "everyone needs a full lineup" thing, especially with a great product like the Lambdas. It just gets really hard to get 4 of them out there and give them the marketing they deserve.

Re: the 3.6DI. Good point, and as far as the high tech, powerful and efficient engine families go, here's what the lineup looks like:

I4:
Ford: 2.0L TC DI 275 hp, 280 lb/ft
GM 2.0L TC DI 260 hp, 260 lb/ft

V6
Ford: 3.5L TC DI 340 hp, 340 lb/ft
GM: 3.6L DI 300 hp, 300 lb/ft (I think?)

Sorry, but Ford wins on both rounds. GM was first and both were great, but Ford has come from behind and leapfrogged. And really, it doesn't matter much whether out V6 makes 300 hp or 340, because if we put it through the front wheels it won't be much fun. Too bad I can't afford a CTS.

Speaking of affordable, a number of people have said "well, look at the autoshows to see what GM is coming out with"

OK, lets look at that:
Hybrid Tahoe, Yukon, Sierra, and Silverado. I don't know the pricing for the trucks, but since the SUVs will be going for $60,000 or so, they mean absolutely nothing to me most GM customers in practical terms. Cool? Heck yes. But really something I can get excited about owning? Nope. Especially since as a 21 year old corporate financial analyst intern living in LA with just a fiancee to drive around I have absolutely no need for a truck.

GMC Denali concept - still unconfirmed, and see above. Likely too expensive, and no need for a truck.

Corvette ZR1 - too expensive

CTS-V - too slow...umm, no, kidding, just too expensive.

Traverse - yet another in a long line of Lambdas, and I have no need for a family car.

Seriously, all of GM's recent concepts are targeted at the Texas tycoons or people with huge families. So as my beloved smaller RWD cars are dropped from consideration in favor of more super expensive cars and clones of mom-mobiles, I'm left with the G8 (far too big) and the still promising Camaro. If something were to go wrong there, GM has nothing else for me, despite its insane amount of brands. Of course, there is always the Mazda RX8, Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart, upcoming Toyota and Honda RWD performance cars, Hyundai Genesis coupe... Basically I'm left with tons of sporty, smaller, affordable alternatives, all outside of GM.

Finally, one last note: every time word comes out that GM is dropping another proposed product due to CAFE, the phrase that comes up is "The G8 and the Camaro are still safe because they are too far along to cancel." So read between the lines there. It is only by luck of timing that we're even getting the 2 remaining affordable performance cars GM has left. If GM could have canceled them without forfeiting sunk costs, they would have. When I hear things like that, I lose confidence fast.

I feel your pain, I am a 21 year old dude in Vegas working for a lawfirm. A lot of stuff said about the problems with CAFE and GM halting some projects is through the media which is.... not the best place to get information anymore? Its a lot of politics, but you definately want a camaro right? It should be affordable, so get it. Let time tell as to if GM will work things out, not jump to conclusions of the future. Hell I was looking at a variety of vehicles outside of GM because I needed a car, but then the Camaro came along and I will die for one now. So they have to be doing at least something right.

[stovt001]

The one thing I'm worried about is that I won't be able to afford a Camaro at launch. It will take another year and a half (minimum) to 3 years or even more after launch until I can afford it, what with paying for a wedding, splitting rent with only one other person now, paying off college loans, starting an investment portfolio, save for a house... Now my worry is that if GM is already wanting to cancel it if not for the sunk costs and nearly-complete development, how many years will they put up with it before it goes the way of the GTO and SSR. I just worry it will be canceled before I can get one, and I'll have to go elsewhere. I really don't want to leave GM, but I'm worried I'll have no choice, because cars like the G6 in its current state just don't do it for me.

[Roflmao]

Definately know the feeling. Me and my girlfriend live in an apartment with my best friend and his girlfriend. Our rent is 1300 a month for the apartment, split it 4 ways and its not bad, but our lease is up in May and we are looking at our own place. Money is a pain in the ass during this part of life. I too was worried about the Camaro going away before I could get it. But I can't see that happening. I mean the Camaro should be close to the standards already, GM just seems to be more cautious than anything to make sure they get it right. If someone told you "Hey you have to get 80 questions right out of a hundred on an upcoming test for calculus" and so you studied with the thought in mind of needing a certain amount of information to pass even though its really friggin hard. and then someone comes back a week later and says "oops you need to get 88 out of a 100 now" wouldn't you go back and study and get more info? Thats all GM seems to be doing. hope that made sense

[stovt001]

So to make peace with everyone, I actually do love GM, and its because I'm worried about its future vehicles that I'm getting all up in arms about this. I want my performance fix from GM, but if I'm forced to go elsewhere I will, but I'll have to be forced by the lack of good GM products.

[[KRPT]ECP]

I noticed when you cited costs of things, you left out a few things. complaining about the lack of rwd performance seems somewhat backwards to me being as we're on a site dedicated to the upcoming return of one of gm's legendary performance rwd cars that will be affordable.

other practical cars are also available, I noticed you have completely avoided talking about the volt when complaining about the lack of practical cars for you.

It's hard to understand where you're coming from when you first say that they have too many cars that are alike, then complain that there aren't too many performance cars.

just some things I'd noticed about your arguments