Kenne Bell vs Whipple

[MARZ]

Originally Posted by Jim@KB

This is where our data has always disagreed with yours- and why this discussion has been ongoing. Soon S.T. Motorsports will test same car, tune, etc. EVERYTHING the same including 1) dyno fans 2) hood position (open or closed) 3) sensors 4) fan on or off only the supercharger kits (KB and Whipple) will differ. Then we can see how the STM tests compare to yours and have another discussion, okay? Until then.

Meanwhile, I am responding to your STEP post.

I'm applying your logic here, Jim, so please bear with me. S.T. Motorsports is a Kenne Bell dealer. They "should have an agenda- promoting or recommending any kit except" Whipple. I understand and don't fault you or them for it.

Originally Posted by Matt@KB

Since you aren’t a KB dealer, it’s difficult to make a profit on KB. You should have an agenda- promoting or recommending any kit except Kenne Bell. I understand and I don’t fault you for it.

[Turbo99]

Originally Posted by MARZ

I'm applying your logic here, Jim, so please bear with me. S.T. Motorsports is a Kenne Bell dealer. They "should have an agenda- promoting or recommending any kit except" Whipple. I understand and don't fault you or them for it.

[Turbo99]

Here is a link after searching KB customer service, just to see this isn't the first time they don't listen and point fingers. The first post is the best with copies of Matt emailing the customer...lol

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/f...ce-not-128482/

[mikepage0007]

not to be a kb kiss a** , but you gotta post the whole story..you oughta know better..lol this has lots of other stuff besides this,..boils down to- if i bght a maggie from ted and went to jimbobs shop for install and left there to go to leenys shop to install pulley and tune...in between changing to another engine with different exhausts and so forth,,i don,t think maggie would like it if i came to them and said i bght from x went to y and also had z do this..replace my sc,not working right.....,customer service could of def been better.. couple other posts.. This situation is just a big cluster ****. He bought the KB from Shop #1, Shop# 2 installs it and Shop# 3 puts the pulley on then he is checking the stuff over himself to figure out the problem. The motor was out of the car for some reason, a different one installed. Jumperjack, No offense to you, Im not trying to make it out to seem like you do not know what you are doing but there is so much going on in this situation that it just doesnt seem to me that there is something wrong with the blower. There were alot of different hands involbed As I promised I have just received an Email from Jim@KB and after all the trials and tribulations they are going to go the extra mile to see to it that they have a satisfied customer. I have not received the pics yet but will post them up when I do. Here is the Email from Jim.

Tom,
We tore down the compressor I will send you some pictures. What we found was some small piece of debris went through the compressor. Nothing that would cause your issue or anything but it did nick up the rotors. We pulled out the seals and seal rings and found them to be in perfect condition. The tolerances are still well within spec. the compressor is flawless.
What we are going to do is replace the 2.6 with a new 2.8 for you at no charge. We are doing this for you for the trouble you have had with this project. You will see that the 2.8H will make up 2lbs of boost. Nothing more. So if you were short 5lbs before, you will still be short 3lbs. So we are shipping the 2.8H with the pulley that was on the 2.6 and another pulley that is good for 2lbs of boost. We will guarantee the compressor for 12 months.
About the debris, our recommendation is to get an installer that is a little more careful and cleaner. There are marks on the outside of the case as well from removal and installation. If you look in the intercooler, you might find what ever went through the compressor.
We have the 2.8 out to you probably tomorrow.
tter..

[Turbo99]

Thats why I didn't copy and paste, let everyone read and see. The point is that in the BEGINING the CS was poor.

By the way that first paragraph it difficult to read.

As for the maggie senerio, I in fact bought a Maggie from Ted, had shop X install, and shop Y work on it later not the blower though, and still had a oil leak on my Maggie and Maggie agreed and verified they had an known issue and is in fact in the process of fixing it on their dime, although it is not fixed yet they have made the correct attempts.

[mikepage0007]

Originally Posted by Turbo99

Thats why I didn't copy and paste, let everyone read and see. The point is that in the BEGINING the CS was poor.

By the way that first paragraph it difficult to read.

As for the maggie senerio, I in fact bought a Maggie from Ted, had shop X install, and shop Y work on it later not the blower though, and still had a oil leak on my Maggie and Maggie agreed and verified they had an known issue and is in fact in the process of fixing it on their dime, although it is not fixed yet they have made the correct attempts.

sorry about typo..late nite..i believe that kb is diff , as it is in there vendor policy that no on can sell kb without doing the install..so shop A violated policy by selling and not installing..should of taken back to that shop, but of course they did not do install..but all worked out..kb sent the guy a brand new upgraded blower for his trouble.

[HufferSS]

Originally Posted by Turbo99

Here is a link after searching KB customer service, just to see this isn't the first time they don't listen and point fingers. The first post is the best with copies of Matt emailing the customer...lol

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/f...ce-not-128482/

Actually the last two pages of that thread are the best. The blower had debris go through it and scarred up the rotors. They upgraded him to a 2.8 at no charge even though it was installer error.

[mikepage0007]

i beat you that time..lol..do me a favor and don,t post links to such long threads... it was like a murder mystery, had to read the whole damn post..lol

[Turbo99]

Originally Posted by HufferSS

Actually the last two pages of that thread are the best. The blower had debris go through it and scarred up the rotors. They upgraded him to a 2.8 at no charge even though it was installer error.

I agree it got taken care of the correct way IN the END, but the guy shouldn't hav ehad to go through that. Thats why I posted it, it has both sides of it... bad/good.

[2010SSRSM6]

There for a minute I thought you screwed you kb up by getting debris through it.

I was trying to figure out how you got a 2.6 on your Camaro. That and why your SN is MikePage0007, and the email called you Tom.

I need some sleep.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Jim@KB

But, again, the restriction is minimal, especially in “the big 4.5". Larger 4.5" pipes flow more air than 4" or 3.5". We’ve already discussed this in the above post. Your 4"? Good luck. I thought we were done with this discussion.

Now you’re picking at our “STEP” couplers claiming my design creates “turbulence.” You’re over using the word, Ted. Try vena contracta for a change.

FYI, the Kenne Bell STEP (your terminology) couplers I use to adapt our Mammoth 4.5" to smaller 90, 83, 80 and dual 60mm throttle bodies, INCREASES THE THROTTLE BODY AIR FLOW instead of REDUCING it as you falsely claim. Surprised? It’s what we do. It’s a proven FACT, not an opinion. I can prove it to anyone on the flow bench, engine or chassis dyno. Two magazines already witnessed the gains on a flow bench and published the tests.

No, Ted, you don’t “have all the answers” as you claim. Every coupler we engineer is individually tested on the flow bench and dyno as is every piece of the Mammoth assembly. Then it’s tested as an assembly.

Why 4.5?” The 4.5" allows for a larger “rounded” radius. 4.5"- 3.5"= 1" (.5" radius) vs 4.0"- 3.5" = .5" (.25" radius). The 4.5" works better than a 4". A 3.5" pipe connected to a 3.5" throttle body is a slip fit allowing “0" radius to create a smother flow into the throttle body.

For larger throttle bodies, the 4.5" has another advantage. It also flows more air at higher HP levels, thereby reducing turbulence. And the 4.5" just happens to match the air flow and hook up nicely, via the matching coupler.

The Kenne Bell designed STEP couplers do work, you say they can’t. Here is irrefutable proof. We’ll use the worst case- the 4.5" reduced to a little 80mm 3.25" 5.0 Mustang throttle body. Remember that these throttle bodies were designed for stock engines with much lower CFM demands, so stock TB’s are undersized for supercharged applications.

967CFM STOCK 80MM
*1128 CFM STOCK 80MM WITH KB 4.5" X 3.5" STEP CONNECTOR
+ 161 CFM IMPROVEMENT
* Flows the same CFM as a Shelby dual 60mm (1126 CFM). Not bad for an 80mm.
See 5.0 Mustang for photos; http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/S...ustang2011.htm



These are some of the entry shapes tested for the 90mm Camaro TB: Note how the entry into the throttle body is enhanced. The rubber coupler does work, as hundreds of our customers will attest to.

Here is the theory. The larger the pipe, the greater the radius (STEP) that can be incorporated into the throttle body entrance.
When properly engineered, it is possible for the entire inlet system to actually exceed the TB flow number. The Mammoth systems were designed to support up to 1200HP with only a throttle body upgrade- and a 3.6 or 4.2LC, if needed.

Our goal was to avoid any expensive upgrading of components (filter, pipe, meter, manifold, intercooler, etc.). You get the “biggest, baddest” one the first time, even with the standard 9 psi kit. No disassembly or machining required. Simply replace our hi flow STEP coupler with the new 168mm coupler, lose the 80mm 5.0 Ford, 81mm Dodge, 90mm Camaro, Dual 60 Shelby or... and bolt on a big 105mm, dual 75, 148mm or 168mm Kenne Bell throttle body (manual or DBW). The mammoth manifolds are 80-110mm X168mm wide to allow upgrading to any KB throttle body. They all fit the larger couplers which are specific to the various throttle bodies.

Their job? Increase- not decrease- air flow of the throttle body. Then there’s the 2350 CFM 6" throttle body. The STEP coupler air flow principles we use is the same seen on injector stack bells or the Camaro 6.2 inlet scoop. It’s not new. We just put a new twist on it.

Ted may not have been familiar with this approach e.g. “Big pipe- smaller TB”. It is unorthodox -but it makes HP and leaves plenty of room to grow. Adam at S.T. Motorsports and Frank at Findley Customs are two builder tuners that I know of who successfully use and tune it without issues..

The potential can be +16% TB and +20% filter as compared to one size straight pipe flow.

“When would you need a 4.5" pipe?” “When the guy lined up next to you has a 4"?”

Jim I have the Utmost Respect for you and your Company, and I appreciate you sharing the technical info.

I never said the Honeycomb didn’t reduce air flow or flow area.

Actually you did.

I disagree. The Honeycomb does not reduce the “cross section” (diameter) of the pipe. It’s function is to assist in laminar air flow by “dividing” our single 4.5" air column into approx 1000 air streams. Ford and GM use a smaller more restrictive 3", 3.25", 3.5" etc. SMALLER CROSS SECTION and a screen is more restrictive than a screen or honeycomb in a larger 4.5". The Honeycomb or screen reduces the effective flow AREA but by “straightening” the air flow you can actually see an increase in some cases.

Although we have different Ideas on how things should be done, I can respect were you are coming from with a 1 size fits all approach.

I want Nothing More than to see your Supercharger system be the best that they can be, this is why I shared the info I recorded and continue to record.

In some way every system has shortcomings and It is my quest to find them and make them better so the end result is PERFORMANCE with RELIABILITY and CONSISTENCY.

I am really looking forward to answers to some of the questions I have posted about pipe size VS HP and IAT Sensor calibrations.

[MJ]

Question for Matt or Jim, If I understand correctly, inseting the honeycomb will have negligible loss in HP up to a certain power level (I forgot, was it 550 rwhp?). How much of a power loss could be expected at the 600 to 700 wheel HP level?

[DarricSS]

Originally Posted by Jim@KB

This is where our data has always disagreed with yours- and why this discussion has been ongoing. Soon S.T. Motorsports will test same car, tune, etc. EVERYTHING the same including 1) dyno fans 2) hood position (open or closed) 3) sensors 4) fan on or off only the supercharger kits (KB and Whipple) will differ. Then we can see how the STM tests compare to yours and have another discussion, okay? Until then.

Meanwhile, I am responding to your STEP post.

When is this Epic, Un-biased non Skewed facts Blower test going to start?

[TAG UR IT]

I ask politely...again...please keep it clean and respectful, guys...

Thank you.