swaybar question

[jxmot]

Gentlemen.... is there a "suspension FAQ" anywhere I can read ? I'd like to become a little more educated before I make a final choice.

thanks!

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by jxmot

Gentlemen.... is there a "suspension FAQ" anywhere I can read ? I'd like to become a little more educated before I make a final choice.

thanks!

We have some data here:
http://www.peddersusa.com/products/21/73


But we do not have a question and answer section that actually might be a great idea.

In general, the Camaro is too high and too heavy in the front. The dampers are OK but the coil rates are insufficient. The Zeta design is an excellent platform, but for their legacy philosophies on soft bushings under underspringing, creates serious understeer, and general all around lower performance in the suspension. Also the Camaro is set up for an adjustable caster method, but they do not give you the tools to do it with. Pedders has that taken care of.

So with our systems, we seriously reduce unwanted movement with very little changes in noise abatement, make the front and rear alignment more alignable, lower the center of gravity, improve damping levels, spring levels, and with aggressive multi adjustable sway bars, you will be able to assist in reduction of understeer, and fine tune the suspension to better meet your suspension needs.

So if you have questions, just ask
mike
dms

[Rikarus]

Will a stiffer/thicker front swaybar correct the right front wheel coming up when you jam into a corner?

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Rikarus

Will a stiffer/thicker front swaybar correct the right front wheel coming up when you jam into a corner?

In order to fix this issue you'll need a stiffer rear bar. In a right hand corner the weight is being shifted to the left rear and that is where it's rolling over. Springs can certainly help this also but sways would be the first place I'd start.

Please feel free to call or email us anytime!

Kind regards,

[Rikarus]

Originally Posted by Jordan

In order to fix this issue you'll need a stiffer rear bar. In a right hand corner the weight is being shifted to the left rear and that is where it's rolling over. Springs can certainly help this also but sways would be the first place I'd start.

Please feel free to call or email us anytime!

Kind regards,

Ah gotchya! TY

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by Rikarus

Ah gotchya! TY

No problem! I'm happy to say we have the stiffest/largest rear bar as we understand vehicle dynamics. A stiff/large front bar is going to make the understeer problem in the 5th Gen much worse!

Kind regards,

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by Rikarus

Will a stiffer/thicker front swaybar correct the right front wheel coming up when you jam into a corner?

It will help but not 100%. The Camaro is too high and the coils are too soft. A more balanced approach would be to do a coil/sway bar package



mike
dms

[JusticePete]

Most people address a vehicle modification in terms of adding components. When setting up a vehicle the desired use of the vehicle is the most critical component and not anything you can buy. You are the single most critical component. How will YOU drive YOUR Camaro? That is why Mike is spot on with his comments.

The OEM Camaro has a huge amount of understeer built in when driven to 7/10 or more. It plows the North 40. Where is that point -- pretty well out in terms of performance. The understeer was designed in. Most drivers slow down or brake when a vehicle starts to slide. With understeer that is no problem, especially with electronic braking and stability controls. Slow down and the understeer harmlessly fades away. Lift or lift to brake in an oversteer condition and things can get ugly fast -- especially for drivers accustomed to understeer.

In our Camaro testing we have found that a larger front sway bar improves turn in at the point of understeer. That is not a fixed MPH; it is a condition in a particular turn. By getting more bite on the initial turn in you can now navigate the turn without encountering understeer you did. Push ever so slightly past that marginal threshold and understeer sets in. The larger front bar controls lean better than the OEM bar while you drive. A larger front bar does not reduce understeer. With a larger front bar when understeer sets in it will be worse than with the OEM smaller bar. For a great many Camaro owners, their driving experience will be superior with a larger front bar because of the way they drive. The driving experience for most owners is their primary interest and not the fastest lap on a track.

On the Pedders Camaro, with a full Pedders suspension, Forgeline wheels and Bridgestone RE-11 305/30/19s we are finding that driving past 7/10s requires more speed and more aggressive maneuvers than we expected. A lot more. The car sticks like Velcro to the road -- with OEM bars. What that tells us is that a properly bushes, sprung, damped Camaro with light weight wheels and great rubber drives very well and will require only fine tuning with sway bars. For our setup we will want the car to be so well balanced it slides seamlessly between neutral and oversteer with driver input. It is critical to avoid falling off the edge into oversteer for even the most accomplished driver. We want the fastest lap on the track.

As we test with OEM rubber and the Pedders rubber, with Pedders suspension and OE rubber, with a fully setup Pedders car, we are coming up with very different bar solutions that will work within a range of Camaro vehicle setup. A modest increase in the rear bar for better balance front to rear with OEM suspension, wheel and tires – why? Most who would want more performance will do more modifications requiring a different front bar too. We may offer a single front bar solution for the enthusiast that drives modestly, a front and rear bar solution for the enthusiast that drives more aggressively and a very aggressive bar set for those that drive like I do. We still have not made a commitment to a solution as we just completed our test mule. To find the edge of performance, you need a Camaro capable of a lot more than OEM speeds, acceleration and deceleration. Now that we have a tool for that job, we’ll keep you posted on the results. I can say is our G8s tested out rather well at New Jersey Motorsports Park. The drivers found them to be seriously capable and exceptionally fast. My personal G8 is an awesome automobile. I love it. Driving the OEM Camaro was just not the same as driving a dialed in G8. When I drive the upgraded Camaro all I think about is how much better it is than the G8 -- and we still don’t have the bars dialed in.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I haven't tested the Hotchkis set-up personally but based on the rate increases they won't help with the balance issues but they will help with body roll. These particular bars may in fact increase the understeer based on the rates published.

Jordan is correct. To reduce understeer the rear bar diameter must be increased in relation to the front bar. What Hotchkis is attempting to do is improve the driving experience. The car will feel better when driven within a certain range. Push past that range and there will be more understeer than in OEM trim from a bar perspective. HOWEVER, based on our testing the driving experience for a great many would be very rewarding as most do not push into the limits where the increase in understeer would be found. What is the right solution. Is it a technically correct solution that may induce too much oversteer at the wrong time or a safe solution that maintains understeer, but at a higher threshold? Maybe it should be both and we'll bring to market multiple bar solutions....

[Doc]

It's very interesting to see 2 respected names with such totally different approaches to suspension setup.

Correcting understeer means either giving more grip to the front, or less grip to the rear or a slight combination of both.

The car is front heavy so there's more force pushing to the outside in the front when cornering, and the rear tires are bigger than the front so they have more grip to begin with. Without mods the fronts in a corner are going to lose grip before the rears do, thus the understeer.

So the "large rear sway bar" philosophy controls body roll thus reducing the weight shift to the outside in the front? And that's how it's reducing understeer? And the "large front sway bar" philosophy makes the back of the car roll more so it shifts it's weight first and that's how it's reducing understeer?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to understand how two completely opposite strategies can accomplish the same thing here.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by Doc

It's very interesting to see 2 respected names with such totally different approaches to suspension setup.

Correcting understeer means either giving more grip to the front, or less grip to the rear or a slight combination of both.

The car is front heavy so there's more force pushing to the outside in the front when cornering, and the rear tires are bigger than the front so they have more grip to begin with. Without mods the fronts in a corner are going to lose grip before the rears do, thus the understeer.

So the "large rear sway bar" philosophy controls body roll thus reducing the weight shift to the outside in the front? And that's how it's reducing understeer? And the "large front sway bar" philosophy makes the back of the car roll more so it shifts it's weight first and that's how it's reducing understeer?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to understand how two completely opposite strategies can accomplish the same thing here.

Hey Doc, I think you mean Correcting understeer means more grip to the front and less to the back?

It is a challenge and a balancing act because the amount of body role and understeer is seriously excessive. Getting rid of it by replacing bars is, in my opinion, not the way go. Improving it, bars can help. If you break a corner into 3 sections, entering middle and exiting, the front bar will help a lot of the first 2 and for the novice, will work better. The rear bar will help on the exiting of the corner, potentially better for a professional driver.

To me a more balanced approach will be a bar and drop coils with higher rates. We have been able to get our Xa coil overs set up when dropping low, to a neutral position. That has been our goal since the start, and we have obtained it. We now have multiple Camaros that we have access to from a complete Track System with monster tires, the Pedders Camaro, to a Camaro that is stock and a Camaro that has our coil overs. So we will be able to come up with multiple options and recommendations. If the Camaro handling wasn;t so poor, we would not have these issues at all.

thanks
mike
dms

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Doc

It's very interesting to see 2 respected names with such totally different approaches to suspension setup.

Correcting understeer means either giving more grip to the front, or less grip to the rear or a slight combination of both.

The car is front heavy so there's more force pushing to the outside in the front when cornering, and the rear tires are bigger than the front so they have more grip to begin with. Without mods the fronts in a corner are going to lose grip before the rears do, thus the understeer.

So the "large rear sway bar" philosophy controls body roll thus reducing the weight shift to the outside in the front? And that's how it's reducing understeer? And the "large front sway bar" philosophy makes the back of the car roll more so it shifts it's weight first and that's how it's reducing understeer?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to understand how two completely opposite strategies can accomplish the same thing here.

A larger front bar does not reduce understeer. It improves turn in in a range or operation. Push a little more and we are back to understeer, worse understeer due to the front to rear bar ratio. It is a general feel that the Hotchkis solution is offering and one that for many drivers will be all they need. I can't speak for Pfadt in terms of knowing their front and rear bar diameters, but theirs is the technically correct solution that directly addresses understeer reduction. How loose the car is with Pfadt bars I don't know.

The question isn't which one is right by the book. The question is how do you want your car to drive?

[CGM2SSRS]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

A larger front bar does not reduce understeer. It improves turn in in a range or operation. Push a little more and we are back to understeer, worse understeer due to the front to rear bar ratio. It is a general feel that the Hotchkis solution is offering and one that for many drivers will be all they need. I can't speak for Pfadt in terms of knowing their front and rear bar diameters, but theirs is the technically correct solution that directly addresses understeer reduction. How loose the car is with Pfadt bars I don't know.

The question isn't which one is right by the book. The question is how do you want your car to drive?

That last sentence is biblical in terms.
Pete I thank you for explaining the direction/mindset in R&D. Your knowledge and determination in achieving maximum potential is absolutely admirable, bordering compulsive. hahahaha...(that is a GOOD thing for people like me)
I just want to add on to that last sentence of Pete. And this is to those looking to setup their cars with help from trained experienced people. Communication and understanding are of the up most importance. This will help eliminate potential,"issues or misinterpretations after the fact"
Pete, you da man.

[CGM2SSRS]

Let me also say thank you to Jordan for his knowledge and quality product to us all. We as members here are lucky to have these two quality products here as well as personnel highly qualified to inform and assist down the line.
Kudo's!!