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Old 10-12-2010, 06:39 PM   #141
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:26 PM   #142
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:27 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syr74 View Post
If the Z/28 comes out and a refreshed GT500 is faster than GM's effort to dethrone it then yeah, they'll pay for it in marketing. Look at the Volt debacle right now, perception counts.
The current furor in the automotive press is a bunch of baloney being propagated by a collection of writers that have the combined knowledge of a toadstool!! What the perception will end up being after this is fully aired in the press is it doesn't really make any difference whether the Volt is really an electric car or a hybrid, the fact will remain that it will not move unless there is electricity present (unlike the Prius which will move without any electricity) and that it gets a far better MPG rating (by a factor of 3:1 or 2:1) than any other vehicle on the market today. The end result for the Volt will be more public knowledge of how it works and what awesome MPG ratings it has. Only complete idiots would believe everything that is published without verifying facts (and there are quite a few complete idiots out there, one need only look at the state our country/economy is in to verify that).
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:33 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by ParisTNDude View Post
I drove the Ring 4 laps a few years ago in my 2002 C5 modded vette. Got passed by a bunch of much slower cars, got air-born twice, ran 165 on the longest allowable straight, passed several Porsche 911s on straights, on run flats with awful traction, but no excuses other than I knew nothing about the track. my times were around 9 minutes 30 seconds....lol. I'm hoping the Z28 beats my time by 1 minute 36 seconds which makes it 7:54!!!

NOTE: Comparing the suspension and weight of my 2010 Camaro, with LT headers, HF cats, K&N CAI and SCT tuner by Janetty, I suspect I could now beat my C5s times.

Since you most likely drove it during the tourist laps, your laptime was a "BTG" (Bridge to Gantry) time and not a full lap. You could probably add on an additional 30sec to your time to get the full lap, which means the Z28 should be about 2min faster then you!

But seriously though, 9.30 after 4 laps is pretty damn good. It took me a while to get down to that, and then below the 9min mark BTG.

Fastest I have run to date is 8:05 in my C5 Z, and that was probably the biggest adrenalin rush ever. My wife was right behind me in her tuned RS4 and set a 8.24 time which was hugely impressive.


I hope and think the Z28 should be capable of a sub 8min lap, I would guess 7.57-7.58.

The Mustang wouldn't have a chance at that track btw, I have driven my track built GT there and live axles are NOT in any way beneficial at a bumpy track like that.

/Erik
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:02 PM   #145
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Corvette ZR1 - 7:38

2012 Camaro Z/28 - 7:43**

Corvette C6 Z06 - 7:49

Cadillac CTS-V - 7:59

2010 Camaro SS - 8:20


**GM has got to put more power down then the 556bhp. Otherwise, add 10 seconds.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:42 AM   #146
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I am going with a 7:55.... It should def shave off 4 seconds compared to the CTS-V due to its being lighter and should have a more beefier suspension
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:57 AM   #147
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:28 PM   #148
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I'd love to make a guess, but the bottom line is that we don't have enough information to even hazard an educated guess. Just something to note: I am comparing the possible Z/28 lap times to the current CTS-V lap times because we can all agree that there are a striking amount of similarities between the two cars (based on what we currently know).

The bare minimum facts we would need to know are as follows:

a) Horsepower and Torque = ?

b) Curb Weight = ?

c) Suspension setup = ?

What we do know:

1) It appears that the Z/28 will have wider, better tires than the CTS-V, which should theoretically help in the grip and handling department.

2) If the current manual (6-spd) CTS-V weights approximately 4050 lbs, and the current manual (6-spd) Camaro SS weighs approximately 3750 lbs, then I would surmise that the Z/28 will fall pretty much in between, say 3900 lbs.

3) The brakes should be, for all intents and purposes, identical the the CTS-V's 6-pot/4-pot Brembos - which are fricking awesome factory brakes. I have a first gen CTS-V, and my factory Brembo 4-pot/4-pot setup is arguably one of the best components of the car for track duty.

4) Probably, the final gear ratio will be the same as the CTS-V (manual at least).

5) The ride height be a bit lower, for a more aggressive muscle car look. The CTS-V doesn't have to sit as low because it is targed more toward the luxury look.

6) The coefficient of drag (Cd) is most likely slightly lower on the Camaro than the V, but I don't know this to be a fact for sure.

What all this tells us is that with all things being equal (HP, Final Gear Ratios, brakes), but the new Z/28 being a couple hundred pounds lighter and having more rubber with a lower Cd, it should, for sure, run faster around the Ring than the V.

But...the big unknown here is what kind of suspension it has. If it has the V's (and ZR1's) Magneto-rheological suspension, that part of the equation will be equal between the cars as well, and I have no doubt it will run at least 5 seconds faster because of all the other things I mentioned above.

On the other hand, if the suspension is a more conventional type, like the current SS has, then it probably might be a very close race (as in almost the same lap times). The reason why I am saying this about the conventional suspension is that we all know that GM will not go "far enough" or "aggressive enough" with a normal suspension setup to really get amazing grip numbers out of it. They aren't going to throw adjustable coilovers with really stiff springs, or adjustable camber plates on the car from the factory, the ride would just be too rough, plain and simple (and the cost too high). While an amazing setup could be found with tweaking these things (Pedders, etc), GM won't do that in factory form.

We won't have a clue on this until the actual Ring lap time comes out, or we at least know the basics that I talked about above (a,b, and c).
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:43 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010SSRSM6 View Post
Corvette ZR1 - 7:38

2012 Camaro Z/28 - 7:43**

Corvette C6 Z06 - 7:49

Cadillac CTS-V - 7:59

2010 Camaro SS - 8:20

**GM has got to put more power down then the 556bhp. Otherwise, add 10 seconds.
Corvette C6 Z06 - 7:42.99 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times

The 2011 GT500 outpaced a Grandsport at VIR (but was slower than a C6Z). A base C6 did 7:59 on the Ring. A Grandsport is faster around a track than a base C6. 7:49.xx is the number for the Z28.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:47 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010SSRSM6 View Post
Corvette ZR1 - 7:38

2012 Camaro Z/28 - 7:43**

Corvette C6 Z06 - 7:49

Cadillac CTS-V - 7:59

2010 Camaro SS - 8:20

**GM has got to put more power down then the 556bhp. Otherwise, add 10 seconds.
Oh and Corvette ZR1 - 7:26.4
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:55 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Blackend SS View Post
I think everyone needs to remember that CTS-V has a lot more creature comforts then the Z28 would have. The Z28 will be strictly for the performance enthusiast, therefore it would not be a big shock if the Z28 matched and,or beat the CTS-Vs lap time. Chevrolet and Cadillac cater to two different kinds of people this does not mean the Z28 can not step on the toes of the CTS-V. The only concern would be if the Z28 was faster then big brother Corvette, much less Z06's. I really think this will be the equivalent of the Z06 as far as value. A Z28 almost as fast as a Z06, but no where near the handling limits of the Z06, does not mean it will be watered down.
I think GM will allow the Z28 to outperform the LS3 Vettes. The base C6 will still sell as an entry level Vette and the GS will sell because of it's looks. Both cars will provide PLENTY of driving thrill. I don't believe the Z28 will outperform the Z06 because the Z06 sells primarily based on it's performance level now that the GS is available with the same looks. I predict the factory performance pecking order will be:

ZR1>Z07>Z06>Z28>GS>Z51>SS

Now... for you "straight line racers", the Z28 will be a pulley swap and a tune away from pulling on a stock Z06.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:57 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by thebrander View Post
I think GM will allow the Z28 to outperform the LS3 Vettes. The base C6 will still sell as an entry level Vette and the GS will sell because of it's looks. Both cars will provide PLENTY of driving thrill. I don't believe the Z28 will outperform the Z06 because the Z06 sells primarily based on it's performance level now that the GS is available with the same looks. I predict the factory performance pecking order will be:

ZR1>Z07>Z06>Z28>GS>Z51>SS

Now... for you "straight line racers", the Z28 will be a pulley swap and a tune away from pulling on a stock Z06.
Z07? Z51?
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:00 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
I'd love to make a guess, but the bottom line is that we don't have enough information to even hazard an educated guess.

The bare minimum facts we would need to know are as follows:

a) Horsepower and Torque = equal to, or more than the CTS-V

b) Curb Weight = 4000-4100 lbs

c) Suspension setup = at least stiffer than the SS

What we do know:

1) It appears that the Z/28 will have wider, better tires than the CTS-V, which should theoretically help in the grip and handling department
yes

2) If the current manual (6-spd) CTS-V weights approximately 4050 lbs, and the current manual (6-spd) Camaro SS weighs approximately 3750 lbs, then I would surmise that the Z/28 will fall pretty much in between, say 3900 lbs.
your weights are around 100 lbs too low for the CTS-V and SS

3) The brakes should be, for all intents and purposes, identical the the CTS-V's 6-pot/4-pot Brembos - which are fricking awesome factory brakes. I have a first gen CTS-V, and my factory 4-pot/4-pot setup is arguably one of the best components of the car for track duty.

4) Probably the final gear ratio will be the same as the CTS-V.


5) The ride height be a bit lower, for a more aggressive muscle car look. The CTS-V doesn't have to sit as low because it is more the luxury look.
I'm pretty sure the CTS-V rides lower than the regular models do, and I would hope that the engineers did it for performance more than style.

6) The coefficient of drag is most likely slightly lower on the Camaro than the V.
not necessarily. The CTS and the Camaro are pretty close aerodynamically. And if the Z28 has improved downforce over the SS then that will hurt its Cd

What all this tells us is that with all things being equal (HP, Final Gear Ratios, brakes), but the new Z/28 being a couple hundred pounds lighter and having more rubber with a lower Cd, it should for sure run faster around the Ring than the V.
Agreed

But, the big unknown here is what kind of suspension it has. If it has the V's Magnetorheological suspension, that part of the equation will be equal between the cars as well, and I have no doubt it will run at least 5 seconds faster because of all the other things I mentioned above.

On the other hand, if the suspension is a more conventional type, like the current SS has, then it probably might be a very close race (as in almost the same lap times). The reason why I am saying this about the conventional suspension is that we all know that GM will not go "far enough" or "aggressive enough" with a normal suspension setup to really get amazing grip numbers out of it. They aren't going to throw adjustable coilovers with really stiff springs, or adjustable camber plates on the car from the factory, the ride would just be too rough, plain and simple. While an amazing setup could be found with tweaking these things (Pedders, etc), GM won't do that in factory form.
The MR suspension is just as much about making the ride comfortable as improving performance. You could have setup as stiff as the MR gets at maximum, it would just be incredibly harsh when driving on public roads.


We won't have a clue on this until the actual time comes out, or we at least know the basics that I talked about above (a,b, and c).
.
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:02 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik@Torq View Post
Since you most likely drove it during the tourist laps, your laptime was a "BTG" (Bridge to Gantry) time and not a full lap. You could probably add on an additional 30sec to your time to get the full lap, which means the Z28 should be about 2min faster then you!

But seriously though, 9.30 after 4 laps is pretty damn good. It took me a while to get down to that, and then below the 9min mark BTG.

Fastest I have run to date is 8:05 in my C5 Z, and that was probably the biggest adrenalin rush ever. My wife was right behind me in her tuned RS4 and set a 8.24 time which was hugely impressive.


I hope and think the Z28 should be capable of a sub 8min lap, I would guess 7.57-7.58.

The Mustang wouldn't have a chance at that track btw, I have driven my track built GT there and live axles are NOT in any way beneficial at a bumpy track like that.

/Erik
I envy you. I'm still trying to get over their and take a shot at that crazy track! 8:05 is blazing fast (given my extensive Ring driving training in Forza 3 ).
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