Who wants to get supercharged? - Page 6 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Ad Wizard · 10-24-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

I've been seeing A4's estimated at 20 to 18% DT loss...so 19%x600hp=114

Ahh - I missed that you have an auto. Those pesky buggers do tend to suck up a bit more power!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a 19% DT loss, to find your crank hp you would multiply your rwhp by 1.19...so 486 x 1.19 = 578? I suck at math! Regardless, you have a sweet ride!

EDIT: I just talked to an buddy that is an engineer and he set me straight. The formula is: Crank hp=rwhp/(1-DT loss) or, in your case 486/.81 = 600hp! Now I know!

PatrickfromMD · 10-24-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtahvit

great post.

Question: In reference to the bold text above, I've heard that you should be careful when choosing a cam for blown applications. Do you think the GMPP Hot cam for the LS3 will be good for FI or not?

THANKS!
Ah, the $64,000 question the hot CAM for a FI engine… , I don’t know, but I’d tend to say no. In the old days a cam with a lot of duration on a FI engine was generally not the way to go. These days so many things have changed I cannot claim agreat deal of knowledge here (hell that’s one of the reasons I’m here) , but I generally think its not the way to go. If I were forced to find something on my own, I would probably get the cam specs for the LSA 556 HP Caddy CTS V, the cam specs for the LS9 638 HP ZR1, and the Cam specs for the LS3 for a comparison.
The LSA peaks at 6100 RPMs w/ 9.1:1 The LS9 peaks at 6500 RPMS w/ 9.1:1

I could not find complete info online (cuz I have no real clue where to look), but judging from what I did find below, I think something in between the LSA cam and the LS9 cam would be ideal. (with a little more detail, we might find that it might be the LS3 cam)

Camshaft for LSA listed as “Lower-lift, low-overlap camshaft”
http://www.media.gm.com/us/cadillac/...CTSVindex.html
0.492-in lift
Supercharger Roots-style displacing 1.9liters
“premium recommended but not required” – check that out!

CAMSHAFT LS9
Type Hydraulic roller
Lift 0.562/0.558-inch intake/exhaust
Duration at 0.050 211/230 degrees intake/exhaust
Supercharger Eaton R2300 four-lobe Roots-style displacing 2.3 liters
Boost 10.5 psi maximum

CAMSHAFT LS3
204* int
211* exh

.551" int
.522" exh

Just an opinion.....
P.S. Williams graph does look nice and linear. It looks pretty goog, but at the same time, would love love to see a comparison of the same blower motor with various cams

Wm Holden · 10-24-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ad Wizard

Ahh - I missed that you have an auto. Those pesky buggers do tend to suck up a bit more power!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a 19% DT loss, to find your crank hp you would multiply your rwhp by 1.19...so 486 x 1.19 = 578? I suck at math! Regardless, you have a sweet ride!

EDIT: I just talked to an buddy that is an engineer and he set me straight. The formula is: Crank hp=rwhp/(1-DT loss) or, in your case 486/.81 = 600hp! Now I know!

Hey...thanks..I didn't have an "official" formula just some inferences of my own....but it seemed to make sense so i ran with it.

Yeah A4's suck up more hp then the sticks....but I also think they make more torque down low when the engine is starting to rev but the cars barely moving.

Wm Holden · 10-24-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatrickfromMD

THANKS!
Ah, the $64,000 question the hot CAM for a FI engine… , I don’t know, but I’d tend to say no. In the old days a cam with a lot of duration on a FI engine was generally not the way to go. These days so many things have changed I cannot claim agreat deal of knowledge here (hell that’s one of the reasons I’m here) , but I generally think its not the way to go. If I were forced to find something on my own, I would probably get the cam specs for the LSA 556 HP Caddy CTS V, the cam specs for the LS9 638 HP ZR1, and the Cam specs for the LS3 for a comparison.
The LSA peaks at 6100 RPMs w/ 9.1:1 The LS9 peaks at 6500 RPMS w/ 9.1:1

I could not find complete info online (cuz I have no real clue where to look), but judging from what I did find below, I think something in between the LSA cam and the LS9 cam would be ideal. (with a little more detail, we might find that it might be the LS3 cam)

Camshaft for LSA listed as “Lower-lift, low-overlap camshaft”
http://www.media.gm.com/us/cadillac/...CTSVindex.html
0.492-in lift
Supercharger Roots-style displacing 1.9liters
“premium recommended but not required” – check that out!

CAMSHAFT LS9
Type Hydraulic roller
Lift 0.562/0.558-inch intake/exhaust
Duration at 0.050 211/230 degrees intake/exhaust
Supercharger Eaton R2300 four-lobe Roots-style displacing 2.3 liters
Boost 10.5 psi maximum

CAMSHAFT LS3
204* int
211* exh

.551" int
.522" exh

Just an opinion.....
P.S. Williams graph does look nice and linear. It looks pretty goog, but at the same time, would love love to see a comparison of the same blower motor with various cams

Kinda hard to do...because No one but me puts a supercharger on a totally unmodded car....

they do exhaust first then heads the headers on and on....so you see very few LS2 stock dynos with just the blower.

I don't doubt 50 hp can be had from a true "Blower cam" but I'm just pointing out that with stock I got great results.

*radz28* · 10-24-2008, 05:39 PM

If I remember reading correctly, as far as durability and such were concerned with, to the engineers, that cam was as big as they were going to go. I think I'd do something similar as you and use either an LS9 or LSA as templates for a highly reliable and powerful SC'd engine. These combinations obviously work - just think what complete exhaust, pulley, CAI, and tune would do. Shoot, raise the rev' limit and throw in whatever necessary valvetrain that's needed, and see how much either of those make at 7000 RPMs.

It's my understanding that the typical thought was that the Whipples were generally more efficient than regular older roots-style because the vanes were more aggressive. With the new TVS rotors though, it would seem the field is a little more level. Also, something to consider, look at what the car manufacturers use: Eaton. Eatons use the older style rotors although not as archaic as the older roots-style rotors and now those TVS rotors are tricling into OEM superchargers (i.e. 1900 for the CTS-V and 2300 for the 2300.) I have a recent Hot Rod that has a Whipple 2.6 SC on a 'Stang in there that Whipple says will support up to like 700 horse' or something while in the same mag' there is a test on a TVS 1900 in a Maggy' that Mag' says will support 800 horsepower. It would be interesting to see tests of the two styles on the same car.

I'll go with whichever has CARB numbers if I can't get FI on an OEM Camaro. I believe Mag' already has one, or is pending, CARB certification on their 1900 so that's one choice. It makes 460+ RWHP on a mostly stock G8 with a CB so I think that's well on the way to the power I'd like to make.

JMVHO

Wm Holden · 10-24-2008, 05:42 PM

2009 (2010?) Elise sc220 comes std with the 1900tvs...I believe....might be the 2300...but i think it's the smaller one or a smaller type of 180 degree twist high helix screws blower.

Just the same...it's a magnuson blower.

BowtieGuy · 10-24-2008, 11:12 PM

Looks like I was a little late to the F/I pow wow to add anything useful. Dang.

ZZcamaro · 10-25-2008, 01:53 PM

We are up to 8 people interested in the Superchargers...

I am thinking of doing a group purchase for updated internals also...It would be a little more difficult, but it could be worth it. I am upgrading internals over next winter, and then the boost is going up!!!!!

speedster · 10-29-2008, 01:38 PM

FYI - Just an extra tidbit of information for you boosted guys:
Be careful with the "new" engines if you are looking to go past 600-650 crank hp. GM has beefed up the "new" LS3/L99's, because the LS2/3, LS7's were having lots of problems with piston skirts canting and sleeving problems. On high boost versions of these 6 out of 7 cracked and had to be re-sleeved. I assume most of you are looking to keep within the 600-650 range, but I wanted to bring it up as a possible expense for any of you horsepower junkies who are looking to push the envelope.

*radz28* · 10-29-2008, 03:13 PM

Ooo... good info'. If I can get 550 to the tire, I'll be happy

I'm sure us FI fans are going to push the envelope as much as possible, LOL.

BowtieGuy · 10-29-2008, 03:18 PM

I'd rather shred the envelope.

*radz28* · 10-29-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowtieGuy

I'd rather shred the envelope.

speedster · 10-29-2008, 03:36 PM

Too funny. I guess we have to keep the envelopes away from you guys...

*GTAHVIT* · 10-29-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedster

Too funny. I guess we have to keep the envelopes away from you guys...

Especially when Bowtie won't stop trying to sniff the glue on them....

10-24-2008, 05:39 PM	#75
radz28 Petro-sexual Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Crazy Coast Posts: 15,198 View My Garage	If I remember reading correctly, as far as durability and such were concerned with, to the engineers, that cam was as big as they were going to go. I think I'd do something similar as you and use either an LS9 or LSA as templates for a highly reliable and powerful SC'd engine. These combinations obviously work - just think what complete exhaust, pulley, CAI, and tune would do. Shoot, raise the rev' limit and throw in whatever necessary valvetrain that's needed, and see how much either of those make at 7000 RPMs. It's my understanding that the typical thought was that the Whipples were generally more efficient than regular older roots-style because the vanes were more aggressive. With the new TVS rotors though, it would seem the field is a little more level. Also, something to consider, look at what the car manufacturers use: Eaton. Eatons use the older style rotors although not as archaic as the older roots-style rotors and now those TVS rotors are tricling into OEM superchargers (i.e. 1900 for the CTS-V and 2300 for the 2300.) I have a recent Hot Rod that has a Whipple 2.6 SC on a 'Stang in there that Whipple says will support up to like 700 horse' or something while in the same mag' there is a test on a TVS 1900 in a Maggy' that Mag' says will support 800 horsepower. It would be interesting to see tests of the two styles on the same car. I'll go with whichever has CARB numbers if I can't get FI on an OEM Camaro. I believe Mag' already has one, or is pending, CARB certification on their 1900 so that's one choice. It makes 460+ RWHP on a mostly stock G8 with a CB so I think that's well on the way to the power I'd like to make. JMVHO __________________ '20 ZL1 Black "Fury" A10, PDR, Exposed CF Extractor Magnuson Magnum DI TVS2650R // RFBG // Soler 103 // TooHighPSI Port Injection // THPSI Billet Lid // FF // Katech Drop-In // PLM Heat Exchanger // ZLE Cradle bushings // BMR Chassis-Suspension Stuff // aFe Bars // Diode Dynamics LEDs // ACS Composites Guards // CF Dash // Aeroforce // tint // other stuffs

10-24-2008, 05:42 PM	#76
Wm Holden Yes, that's my real name. Drives: 2005 LS2 600hp GTO Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Ventura, ca. Posts: 770	2009 (2010?) Elise sc220 comes std with the 1900tvs...I believe....might be the 2300...but i think it's the smaller one or a smaller type of 180 degree twist high helix screws blower. Just the same...it's a magnuson blower. __________________ Magnuson 112HH supercharger at 7.5 psi (Virtual 9.0 liter) 600hp 1 of 2 torrid/red int /A4/05 555r 275/40/R17's Nitto Extreme Drags 1.7 60 ft Car runs high 11's No other mods. I got the first 112HH Magnuson blower ported for a GTO. Now it appears it was also one of the last.... http://www.ribbonprinting.com http://www.personalizedawarenessribbons.com Last edited by Wm Holden; 10-24-2008 at 05:57 PM.

10-24-2008, 11:12 PM	#77
BowtieGuy Enlightened Drives: Nothing Currently Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,285	Looks like I was a little late to the F/I pow wow to add anything useful. Dang. __________________ If you believe it is your right to speak freely no matter the content, relevance, or intelligence of statement, then it is my duty to the powers that be to set you straight. People have to talk about something just to keep their voice boxes in working order. So they'll have good voice boxes in case there's ever anything really meaningful to say. Kurt Vonnegut

10-29-2008, 01:38 PM	#79
speedster SST... Drives: SST Camaro 2010 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: East Coast of Florida Posts: 5,927 View My Garage	FYI - Just an extra tidbit of information for you boosted guys: Be careful with the "new" engines if you are looking to go past 600-650 crank hp. GM has beefed up the "new" LS3/L99's, because the LS2/3, LS7's were having lots of problems with piston skirts canting and sleeving problems. On high boost versions of these 6 out of 7 cracked and had to be re-sleeved. I assume most of you are looking to keep within the 600-650 range, but I wanted to bring it up as a possible expense for any of you horsepower junkies who are looking to push the envelope. __________________

10-29-2008, 03:13 PM	#80
radz28 Petro-sexual Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Crazy Coast Posts: 15,198 View My Garage	Ooo... good info'. If I can get 550 to the tire, I'll be happy I'm sure us FI fans are going to push the envelope as much as possible, LOL. __________________ '20 ZL1 Black "Fury" A10, PDR, Exposed CF Extractor Magnuson Magnum DI TVS2650R // RFBG // Soler 103 // TooHighPSI Port Injection // THPSI Billet Lid // FF // Katech Drop-In // PLM Heat Exchanger // ZLE Cradle bushings // BMR Chassis-Suspension Stuff // aFe Bars // Diode Dynamics LEDs // ACS Composites Guards // CF Dash // Aeroforce // tint // other stuffs

10-25-2008, 01:53 PM	#78
ZZcamaro Drives: 2SS w/ ZZ427 Package!! Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2,700	We are up to 8 people interested in the Superchargers... I am thinking of doing a group purchase for updated internals also...It would be a little more difficult, but it could be worth it. I am upgrading internals over next winter, and then the boost is going up!!!!!

10-29-2008, 03:18 PM	#81
BowtieGuy Enlightened Drives: Nothing Currently Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,285	I'd rather shred the envelope. __________________ If you believe it is your right to speak freely no matter the content, relevance, or intelligence of statement, then it is my duty to the powers that be to set you straight. People have to talk about something just to keep their voice boxes in working order. So they'll have good voice boxes in case there's ever anything really meaningful to say. Kurt Vonnegut

10-29-2008, 03:36 PM	#83
speedster SST... Drives: SST Camaro 2010 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: East Coast of Florida Posts: 5,927 View My Garage	Too funny. I guess we have to keep the envelopes away from you guys... __________________

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