*Pics* Why you should do a Solid Isolator Coupler...

[hairtrigger]

Common sense would dictate that the quality of material that the solid coupler is made out of will determine if it will crack or not, as in some of the pictures on this thread.
A properly made solid coupler would outlast the supercharger.

[silverds]

Originally Posted by hairtrigger

Common sense would dictate that the quality of material that the solid coupler is made out of will determine if it will crack or not, as in some of the pictures on this thread.
A properly made solid coupler would outlast the supercharger.

Someone with common sense and not afraid to use it.

This is precisely the point I made in my original post.

Originally Posted by silverds

Removing the isolating (shock-absorbing) coupling and replacing it with a rigid (non-shock-absorbing coupling) only serves to increase stress on the teeth of the timing gears. If you are concerned about the long-term serviceability of your supercharger, why would you do this? To protect a sacrificial part of the coupling whose only purposes are to keep the coupling fixed around a central axis and to provide resistance to the spring in the isolator? To reiterate, this shaft is sacrificial. It is intented to be galled by the spring until it fits snuggly in the grooves just like Memory foam.

[Vroom]

ZL1 has a 5 year/100k mile powertrain warranty...(and you get to take it to the track and not worry about it breaking...)
GT500 5 year/60k mile powertrain warranty
BMW 5 year/50k mile powertrain warranty

You can only hear the noise when you have to hood open and you're standing in front of it while idling...if you hear it with the hood closed, sitting in your car, you can get the supercharger replaced as per the service bulletin.

The only thing this thread tells me is that too many of you are standing in from of your cars jerking off to the sound of your engine and not taking it out and driving it...

I'll hit 200k before 5 years is even up and I'm GLAD to know that not only did GM test my car but put parts in there to help it last that long

Oh and PS: Lets show some respect for the vendors. We need aftermarket parts and they're the ones that provide them.

[silverds]

Originally Posted by Vroom

ZL1 has a 5 year/100k mile powertrain warranty...(and you get to take it to the track and not worry about it breaking...)
GT500 5 year/60k mile powertrain warranty
BMW 5 year/50k mile powertrain warranty

You can only hear the noise when you have to hood open and you're standing in front of it while idling...if you hear it with the hood closed, sitting in your car, you can get the supercharger replaced as per the service bulletin.

The only thing this thread tells me is that too many of you are standing in front of your cars jerking off to the sound of your engine and not taking it out and driving it...

I'll hit 200k before 5 years is even up and I'm GLAD to know that not only did GM test my car but put parts in there to help it last that long

Thread: *Pics* Why you should do a Solid Isolator Coupler...DONE

[IcePick06]

Originally Posted by Modern07

Just to clarify something here - there is NO additional cost of labor for putting the solid isolator on my build over the labor that I'm paying for changing the pulleys - just the cost of the part itself - a massive $60.

And that $60 is worth it so my car doesn't sound like the tractor in this thread:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310092

So Silver, your insinuation that Matt is charging customers over $300 labor for a part that is not needed is just plain incorrect - it is simply swapped out when the pulleys are changed and If I kept the original I'd save a huge $60 and potentially have a rattle can sounding mess.

I'm unaware of anybody that has changed just the isolator - that would be crazy...its just one of those items to change when doing pulleys and already there.

Easy decision for me.

All of the quotes I've gotten from tuners for pulley swaps have the solid isolator coupling in there and it's built into the labor for the pulleys. Unfortunately like Matt said, there isn't much room to change the pulleys on our blowers without lifting them so the labor charge is quite a bit to swap pulleys as it can take a couple hours at best. Most CTS-V/ZL1 owners swap the upper pulley only just because it's easier to get to = less labor and yields a nice gain in boost. If you want to do both pulleys simultaneously to get around 15+lbs of boost you can do so but usually a camshaft upgrade is recommended too.

[Modern07]

Originally Posted by silverds

So there it is, the gauntlet is laid. If anyone is sure that their solid coupler is better than my spring loaded one, back it up. I have a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty to back up my opinion. What do you have?

More Horsepower and a Faster Car

/Thread

[V6owner]

Originally Posted by Modern07

More Horsepower and a Faster Car

/Thread

He just got SERVED!

[silverds]

This is a debate about why pictures of both types of couplers, a dirty finger and a galled shaft are sufficient reasons to replace the stock spring loaded coupler with a solid molded one.

There are many trolls chiming in with derisive comments and off topic insults, including loyal customers and business associates of this highly recommended shop. However, if we filter out the moronic comments of the less intelligent ones, we can follow the actual topic being discussed.

Technically, this is a repost of a topic already discussed to the point of exhaustion, but I digress; Matt@FSP felt it warranted a repost.

Matt @ Florida Speed and Power posted that his pictures of this galled shaft and his dirty finger are sufficient justification for installing a solid coupler. I am not making this up. This is his Original Post opening the thread.

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

*Pics* Why you should do a Solid Isolator Coupler...

9400 miles...

The counter debate came from many individuals in the form of on-topic questions and counter claims

Originally Posted by joes407

riddle me this matt. the wear shown is 9k miles so does that wear lessen or subside as the car breaks in or will the wear proceed at the current rate through the mileage of the car thus wearing through in xxx miles?

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

Joe I cannot give you an accurate answer on this as we have not done conditional testing on any of this.

I can say that I have seen 100+ LSA motors apart. Among those for example; a 140 mile ZR1 that was fine, 1500 mile CTS-V that was worse than this, and a 40k CTS-V that was fine... Out of all the ones that were taken apart, I'd say 80%+ of the ones that we take off (Its part of our package so we always change these) have impacted the shaft from the spring. In this case we also deburr all 6 pins because the breakdown of the isolator starts elongating some of the bolt holes and the pins get a bit scored.

Matt is contradicting himself in this post. He is states that he cannot answer whether the damage will continue to the point of failure of the supercharger as he has performed no testing to answer that question.

Originally Posted by joes407

it may look worse than it actually is. we have to remember g.m is standing behind this design for 100k miles. that would be roughly 1900 superchargers in '12 and 9k superchargers put on '13's so far. that would be serious cost to warranty all of them if they are all wearing at this rate. my thought is the initial wear happens quickly due to the break in but then subsides to a tolerable wear rate soon after. at that point some rattle and some don't.

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

The only rattle is the loose nut behind the steering wheel...

Thanks willhe for the clarification, I was trying to be too slick in just posting pictures and letting everyone take a look.. The other side of the shaft 180* out from that has very few marks on it, so I'd contribute that to run-out while the isolator/tensioner was breaking down.

The truth is, there is no evidence that the stock Isolator Coupler is breaking down. However it is a known fact that the compression of the spring in the Isolator Coupler is intended to gall the softer center shaft that it surrounds.

Originally Posted by joes407

so in simplified terms youre saying the wear is unpredictable and varies supercharger to supercharger but that the solid coupler hasn't been around long enough to assess whether or not it might cause a negative effect down the road or less than 100k mile life expectancy?

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

Yes.

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

I can tell you that I have done them in 2009, with daily driven CTS-V's that have a bunch of miles on them and not one failure with the solid coupler. Once again, it's hard for me to give you set condition testing as we have not gone that far. However, I can guarantee you that if something breaks I am informed!

So from Matt's own words, we know that Matt has done no actual testing of either the Spring Loaded Isolator coupler or the Solid ones, to be able to make any claims that either is actually better. than the other.

Originally Posted by Al C.

Maybe someone could answer, So the worst case i leave the spring isolator because i hear not rattle but obviosly it causes damage to the shaft....whats gonna happen? Are there replacement parts for these sc or are we stuck buying a sc.. For some crazy reason I'd think Eaton knows the damage this causes, not GM, and would do something about this..or at least give an factual explanation on the reason they keep using a spring isolator.

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

...there has been much discussed already about this issue, galling/noise <with pics>...GM warranty will R&R the part if it's a major customer complaint. Stay within the warranty untils it's closure, then go with a solid coupling after that time.

Originally Posted by DrkPhx

This was a big issue with 09-up CTS-V as well. In fact, most thought it was fixed when the ZL1 was introduced because early pics show a solid isolator minus the spring which turned out to be not true. A link is below which includes GM's response. With that said I have a friend with a 09 CTS-V who has tried a few different solid isolators and the noise is reduced, but still there. Those who replace just the isolator risk voiding their warranty if GM finds out because the entire supercharger must be replaced as a unit under warranty.

Originally Posted by DrkPhx

Originally Posted by joes407

From his response it would seem were worrying for no real reason. Seems they designed it this and if i read correctly the initial wear is the worst

Originally Posted by silverds

Why has it become so difficult to understand.

Originally Posted by silverds

The isolator is a coupling. A coupling is simply the connection between the input and output of a drive.

The reason it's called an Isolator is because it isolates the irregular oscillating motion of the engine crank from the rotor timing gears of the supercharger by absorbing shock.

When your pistons fire, they send a violent pulse that is transmitted from the piston head down through the rod into the crankshaft. The pulse is violent enough to actually cause your crankshaft to twist some fraction of a degree. At the end of your crankshaft is a harmonic balancer that has two purposes, to protect your crankshaft from harmonic vibration at specific frequencies and to minimize shock transmitted through your drive belt to your accessories. (i.e. HVAC Compressor, Water Pump, Alternator, and Supercharger)

The harmonic balancer does not completely eliminate vibration from being transmitted through the drivebelt, it only reduces it. So shock is still being transmitted through the drivebelt. External to the supercharger, there is one coupling between the drivebelt and the pulley. Inside the supercharger there is another coupling from the input shaft to the Timing Gears, and then another coupling between the teeth of the two gears.

So there are two "isolators" buffering the violent oscillating torque of the crank shaft and the relatively delicate teeth of the timing gears between your rotors. The Harmonic balancer and the internal isolator coupler.

Removing the isolating (shock-absorbing) coupling and replacing it with a rigid (non-shock-absorbing coupling) only serves to increase stress on the teeth of the timing gears. If you are concerned about the long-term serviceability of your supercharger, why would you do this? To protect a sacrificial part of the coupling whose only purposes are to keep the coupling fixed around a central axis and to provide resistance to the spring in the isolator? To reiterate, this shaft is sacrificial. It is intended to be galled by the spring until it fits snuggly in the grooves just like Memory foam.

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6...eleatonnk5.jpg

http://images54.fotki.com/v563/photo...xploded-vi.jpg

I'm glad I was able to add a useful explanation on the subject because until this post, all we received was "we don't know as we haven't conducted any testing".

Originally Posted by 580/556 ZL1

NOW! i understand ,,,,

Originally Posted by 6710camaro

Does the isolator need to be removed by a shop, or can this be done in the garage? any special tools?

Here's a presentation of the inner workings of the Eaton TVS2300 used on the ZR1. A lot of great information is communicated in this presentation. At the 1:00 minute mark, pay close attention to the explanation of the inner workings of the snout and isolator coupler.

Originally Posted by silverds

Here's a presentation of the inner workings of the Eaton TVS2300 used on the ZR1. A lot of great information is communicated in this presentation. At the 1:00 minute mark, pay close attention to the explanation of the inner workings of the snout and isolator coupler.

Originally Posted by silverds

Although, these are different model superchargers, the process to change the coupler is virtually the same.

If someone still wanted to know how it's done, why not help them educate themselves

Originally Posted by Modern07

From my understanding, the reason people do the swap is to get rid of the awful rattling noise, rather than to fix anything that may break.

Originally Posted by Modern07

So for those that do not want the rattle, change it to the solid version.

I only changed mine because it was already tore down and so it made sense to me, as I didn't want the rattle to become an annoying problem further down the line

This is the customer who's car Matt was sharing pictures of. Who himself stated he didn't not perceive any noise issues and only changed his coupler because his supercharger was already torn down and he "didn't want the rattle to become an annoying problem further down the line." It kind of sounds like he believed the noise might come later, even though he hadn't yet had any problems". So essentially he bought "insurance", rather than a remedy. Where could he have gotten the impression that installing a solid coupler would ensure he would not have latent rattle issues, when even Florida Speed and Tuning had no data whatsoever to prove or even suspect it.

Originally Posted by djnice

I like what you are saying in these last few posts, but could it be the solid isolator made of polymer or rubberized material also offers adequate cusion/isolation and is quiter than a spring? Another thing, does GM use a solid isolater on the 2300? I didn't look at the videos yet, but I thought GM had break aways showing a solid isolator on one of the supercharger versions.

I like the idea of grease on the spring and shaft to quit it down.

Unfortunately, seeing Matt's original post and his almost complete lack of supporting data to justify his assertion as well as Modern07's claim that he purchased the solid coupler as insurance against future noise, I assumed that perhaps Modern07 was somehow not advised that installing a solid coupler provided no actual insurance against future noise. Who should have told him this? His trusted tuner, perhaps...I posted this.

Originally Posted by silverds

The performance shops who start these threads are knowledgeable and competent and all are in business to support the enthusiast and make money. There is and always will be stress in the coupling between those two interests. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution that balances both without some friction.

Originally Posted by silverds

We as consumers have to educate ourselves so we can recognize when the line shifts away from our best interests and towards increasing profits for the product provider. If I were in business to make money, I would sell solid couplers and replacement superchargers. Because, that's a WIN! / "win" as long as the customer believes it.

I felt the need to let everyone know that FSP and other tuners are generally good people but there is and will always be a blurry gray line between serving the customer and making a profit. When it comes to my money, I want to have as much knowledge as possible before trusting a seller to draw that line for me, and I felt that was good advice to share.

Matt responded that he was insulted by my comment that if I were in business, I would sell solid couplers and replacement superchargers and let the customer believe I was in business for their best interest and that his marketing of this product was in no way profit driven.

The fact that Matt had still not provided any data to support his claim that the galled shaft and his dirty finger were sufficient reasons to replace the solid coupler was not addressed.

The truth is I do not why Matt originally posted. He had no data to support his claim, but he did have a satisfied customer who had opted to install the solid coupler "upgrade" as insurance against future problems, despite having no actual data to support that it would serve that purpose.

All we are left with are pictures of a galled shaft and a dirty finger and some unsubstantiated assertion why this is sufficient reason we should replace our coupler.






and a happy customer who thinks it bought him some extra Horsepower.

Originally Posted by Modern07

More Horsepower and a Faster Car

/Thread

[Al C.]

That's the point I was trying to make, I'm a enthusiast looking for answers.... I've debated changing to the solid coupler for weeks now, and I've come to the conclusion if its not making noise, or very little noise, and GM/ Eaton says its normal,what am I really fixing!?!

Sliverds, have you done a pulley change leaving the spring coupler in the sc or
know of anyone who has.

[joes407]

wow awesome write up. I agree fully and that's why ive got the stock coupler still. as for modern he was losing his warranty anyway due to the other mods and since I see him often I will be listening to that solid coupler as often as I can. I had already been informed by another shop about the vibrations that rock the s/c impellers using the solid coupler and since I put tons of daily miles on my car I figure I better get some more warranty time out of the stock setup thus letting the solid coupler guys do the testing for me.

[Matt @ FSP]

Originally Posted by Al C.

That's the point I was trying to make, I'm a enthusiast looking for answers.... I've debated changing to the solid coupler for weeks now, and I've come to the conclusion if its not making noise, or very little noise, and GM/ Eaton says its normal,what am I really fixing!?!

Sliverds, have you done a pulley change leaving the spring coupler in the sc or
know of anyone who has.

The post was made as informational to the Camaro5 forums. I am not here to peddle isolators like I said in the first place. I did not give you "data" in the first post because it is pretty self explanatory. There is metal missing from an item, and metal shavings inside the blower snout, I know that the educated people here could see that for themselves.

And yes you are right I do not have any data about longevity. There has been no reason to collect this data, and I never do intend to collect this data. Every decent named tuner shop working on the LSA motors changes to the solid coupler, not saying if they jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge I would follow suit, but it's pretty safe to say that if most are doing it with successful results why not follow in line. Seeing as Ford has no recorded complaints that I have personally found on the coupler itself, their solid coupler solution was proper. So following in line with life experience, other colleagues in the business, and the Ford engineers, the solid coupler is what I recommend to all of my client's.

Al C: Regarding your situation, I would NOT change the upper isolator without changing the SC pulley. if you do not have intentions on changing that pulley and keeping the warranty, there is NO reason to change the isolator at all. It's covered under warranty. However, if you intend on raising the RPM/load of the blower, then it is a great idea to upgrade all parts while you are in there. Just like a clutch, if I pull a motor out and the stock clutch is still good, I recommend changing it, why because there is no additional labor and we know that it will fail down the line with the added power. Now as we can see from the pictures here, the isolator/spring is already having a negative impact on the snout shaft, then you are going to add more load due to turning the blower quicker, it's a good idea in my opinion to change the coupler.

I think this topic has been beat to death long enough. I just wanted to share pictures with the C5 community, and my past knowledge that I have on the subject. Anyone that has any questions please feel free to post them but once again I am not here arguing a subject from someone accusing vendors of taking people's moneys with no valid reasoning.

[white ZL1]

Originally Posted by Matt @ FSP

I think this topic has been beat to death long enough. I just wanted to share pictures with the C5 community, and my past knowledge that I have on the subject. Anyone that has any questions please feel free to post them but once again I am not here arguing a subject from someone accusing vendors of taking people's moneys with no valid reasoning.

Well said. Thanks Matt.


silverds: You've brought some solid information and opinion to this thread and it has allowed quite a few of us to see both sides of the solid coupler option.
Unfortunately, the message in this post isn't as subtle as you'd like to believe...or at the very least intended.

Originally Posted by silverds

The performance shops who start these threads are knowledgeable and competent and all are in business to support the enthusiast and make money. There is and always will be stress in the coupling between those two interests. Unfortunately, there is no perfect solution that balances both without some friction.

We as consumers have to educate ourselves so we can recognize when the line shifts away from our best interests and towards increasing profits for the product provider. If I were in business to make money, I would sell solid couplers and replacement superchargers. Because, that's a WIN! / "win" as long as the customer believes it.

But thanks to both of you guys for a bit of education in this thread.

[Al C.]

Thanks for everyone's input! Great info

[Modern07]

Originally Posted by silverds

There are many trolls chiming in with derisive comments and off topic insults,

I have not insulted you once in this thread, yet the following are all from your posts in this thread referencing me amongst others:

Originally Posted by silverds

clowns

Originally Posted by silverds

dim witted

Originally Posted by silverds

moronic

Originally Posted by silverds

less intelligent

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Originally Posted by silverds

This is the customer who's car Matt was sharing pictures of. Who himself stated he didn't not perceive any noise issues and only changed his coupler because his supercharger was already torn down and he "didn't want the rattle to become an annoying problem further down the line." It kind of sounds like he believed the noise might come later, even though he hadn't yet had any problems. So essentially he bought "insurance", rather than a remedy. Where could he have gotten the impression that installing a solid coupler would ensure he would not have latent rattle issues, when even Florida Speed and Tuning had no data whatsoever to prove or even suspect it.[/B]

100% incorrect.

It may be hard for you to believe up there on your soap box but I am actually a very educated consumer who performs thorough research before purchasing anything.

The rattle noise is very well documented and there have been numerous threads from firstly the CTS-V crowd and then also ever since the ZL1 was introduced on this very forum.

I have seen at least one thread a week posted about the rattle noise on these very forums and I was aware of it being an issue LONG before I had even spoke with Matt.

The latest complaint I have already posted in this thread...here it is again in case you missed it:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310092

Now, when I decided to use Matt to change my Pulleys I asked about changing the coupler at the same time, because there would be ZERO additional labor cost (despite what you keep trying to insinuate) and just the cost of the part...a HUGE $60.

So, did I have a problem no, but did I think paying $60 as insurance given that I was losing my warranty, was a worthwhile cost given that I had read so much about the rattle - absolutely.

Did Matt influence my decision in any way, shape or form - absolutely not.

Also note that pretty much EVERY shop changes to the solid coupler when changing the pulleys - not just FSP - don't believe me, here's just one example:

https://www.lingenfelter.com/engine-...upgrade-650-hp

There are MANY MANY more.

So let's not have you make everyone believe that this is just an FSP thing.

Originally Posted by silverds

Unfortunately, seeing Matt's original post and his almost complete lack of supporting data to justify his assertion as well as Modern07's claim that he purchased the solid coupler as insurance against future noise, I assumed that perhaps Modern07 was somehow not advised that installing a solid coupler provided no actual insurance against future noise. Who should have told him this? His trusted tuner, perhaps

Maybe you should stop assuming because yet again you are 100% factually incorrect.

Originally Posted by silverds

The truth is I do not why Matt originally posted. He had no data to support his claim, but he did have a satisfied customer who had opted to install the solid coupler "upgrade" as insurance against future problems, despite having no actual data to support that it would serve that purpose.[/B]

Apart from 4 years of posts and satisfied customers from the CTS-V crowd on their forums saying that they have had no issues, along with all the people I have personally spoken to that have changed to the Solid coupler and are completely satisfied.

Originally Posted by silverds

and a happy customer who thinks it bought him some extra Horsepower.

Really?

You think I actually believe I got any horsepower from the coupler change?

I'm talking about the fact that the ONLY reason I changed this coupler out was because it was already tore down for the pulley changes I have had completed....you know, the ones that result in me having much more horsepower than you.

And also the reason why all we are talking about here is a $60 part. No Labor costs like you keep trying to claim Matt is getting from putting this part in.

Jeez

Unlike you I deal with Facts, not conjecture and inflated egos.

Good Day