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Old 12-18-2013, 06:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
I'm not worried about the factory suspension. I'm worried about the factory V6 brakes.

If the brakes start to go on me, are they going to give me notice? Or am I just going to hit the brakes, and have the peddle turn to jello under my foot?

I'll switch to good fluid, and probably get a set of HPS pads all around.

I'm still pretty hesitant about it though.
You would greatly benefit from SS brakes and pads with the proper heat range, I would not classify HPS as a track pad. You'd be better off with the stock brembo pads. Going with the 305's all around will amplify any brake shortfalls since you have a lot more grip than stock and can brake a lot harder and later if you choose to. But this all depends on your comfort level and how hard you push it as well.

You will get some notice but not a ton. They usually feel a bit soft for a lap or 2 and then fully crap out under a heavy braking situation. When you feel them getting soft take it easy for a lap and let your pedal feel and common sense be your guide. Also using the proper fluid will reduce the chance of the brakes giving out very early, I use Motul RBF600 and bleed before every track day.
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:31 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
I'm not worried about the factory suspension. I'm worried about the factory V6 brakes.

If the brakes start to go on me, are they going to give me notice? Or am I just going to hit the brakes, and have the peddle turn to jello under my foot?

I'll switch to good fluid, and probably get a set of HPS pads all around.

I'm still pretty hesitant about it though.
Its your safety and if you feel uncertian about the V6 brakes then upgrade. I see no harm in that. Good brakes are never something to compromise on if your serious about putting some time in at the track.

Go to the track. Get to know your car. Brake a little early and concentrate on a good line lap after lap. Do this and you'll save on brakes and natually pick up speed. Eventually you will find the limits of the car and what needs upgrading, ie tire/wheels. And yes every time you mod the car you will have to relearn its abilities. As a side note, I would assume that you would use the same safe approch to tracking even if you had the most capable car far beyond your abilities, so mod away!!
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:45 PM   #28
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I wouldn't run HPS pads much past a first introductory track day, and only then with full-time conscious awareness that those are still street pads. You'll probably gain some confidence pretty quickly, and depending on how favorably you impress your instructor you'll be picking up the pace to where you can't just brush on the brakes to settle the car and lose a few mph like you can when you're "late braking" for a 30 mph posted highway exit ramp.

In the Hawk line, you probably want HP+ (which you can and will outgrow), or XP8 or maybe XP10 in Carbotech.

If you boil the fluid, it's probably a pretty sudden thing (haven't done that and hope not to experience it). Overheated pads leave you with a 'hard' pedal feel without as much deceleration happening, so there is a little warning here at least with track pads - my observation anyway.


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Old 12-19-2013, 08:21 AM   #29
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I've never quite understood the drive what you have now till you reach the limits theory.If money is not an object I would take advise from people who know how to set up a car correctly and do it from the get go. To me it makes no sense to learn how to drive a crappy set up, upgrade, then have to relearn the car again. Do it right from the beginning, continue to improve, get plenty of seat time, and I believe your learning curve time will be shorter.
Race tires, coilovers ect, are very good at masking mistakes. You will be faster if you make and correct mistakes prior to upgrading the car.
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:33 AM   #30
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Thanks for all the input guys. I think I will go with the Brembo's and stock pads to start with.

My goal going out there isn't to prove I'm a good driver. I know I'm a very novice race driver! So I want to go out there, and learn the fundamentals, and slowly build up more momentum through the twisty bits.

Once again, thanks for all the input. I'll let you know how it goes in the spring!
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:52 AM   #31
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I'm kind of late to the party but my camaro is pretty much a track only car. I have experienced about every kind of failure you can possibly have (most of these on other track cars), especially with brakes. The most important thing to change is the fluid. If the fluid boils you will have gas bubbles in the brake lines and when you stomp the pedal nothing happens unless you pump the crap out of it. Once some of the fluid is vaporized you will never have good brakes until you replace all the fluid and thoroughly bleed the system. I use Motul 660 fluid, I have heard the Castrol is good. If you have good brake fluid you will always have pedal pressure.

I personally think your stock rotors and calipers could work fine if you if you put the right brake pad on the car. If you stomp the brakes hard at race speed and feel the ABS system stopping lock-up, then you have big enough calipers....period. It is that simple. If your calipers can lock the tires you don't need bigger calipers. If you put a race compound tire on the car the brakes will need a lot more torque to lock the tires.

Brake pads have a preferred temp range and have various torque ratings. The problem with many racing pads is they must get warmed up before they grip. This is really bad in a street car because if you go to the grocery store you will never get the pads warm enough and you will be stomping on the pedal to try to stop the car especially, if it is raining. The plus side is your rotors can be glowing red hot and they will still stop the car fine. As a matter of fact some of the race pads, the hotter you get them the better they stop. The problem with most "street pads" is that once they get too hot they melt and no longer grip the rotors. This will be the hard pedal with no stop sensation Norm described. Hawk HP will do this about 1000 degrees, I've melted a set down completely when I was testing combos. This leaves a couple of options, you can either swap pads just for track days. Or you can get a good all around temp pad. The better the temp range is on the pad, the more street problems it has in general. I'm using porterfield R4 racing pads. They have the best temp range of any pad I have ever tested and stop like mad. They also make tons of dust, squeal at certain temps and eat a set of rotors in the time the pads wear out. But I never change them and they always stop. Probably not the best pad for a daily driver but my car has almost as many track miles as it has road miles.

Putting a bigger rotor on the car will help cool and keep the temps down but you could get more gain from a stock sized 2 piece rotor with an extended air channel like comes stock on the ZL1. It you put a fresh air duct to the brakes this will help more than a bigger rotor and caliper. I did this on my other cars....ZL1 has this stuff stock.

Honestly the bigger caliper just gives the system potential to make more heat and if you are not prepared to handle the increased heat it won't help you much.

I'm mixed on upgrading your car suspension and tires. Some people I know are hardcore about practicing completely stock before you make upgrades. I don't buy into this fully. I think you learn to drive what you have. If you start to drive the performance edge of a highly upgraded car you will have a lot more speed and possibly more severe consequences if you cross the line. Generally, the best drivers walk the line. If you don't feel the need to hang out on the performance edge of your car, the track experience is generally better on racing rubber with suspension upgrades because you can go a lot faster without as much skill. If you really want to learn to drive, you have to get comfortable on the line. As you get better, you will find that it is really hard on the car to hang on the ragged edge and if you back off just a little it is a lot easier on brakes, tires and engine cooling without hardly any difference in lap times. Coaching and instruction from experienced drivers is well worth the investment. Hope this helps.
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Last edited by jessrayo; 12-20-2013 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:07 PM   #32
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So, i'm generally confused by your post Jessrayo.


Quote:
Putting a bigger rotor on the car will help cool and keep the temps down but you could get more gain from a stock sized 2 piece rotor with an extended air channel like comes stock on the ZL1. It you put a fresh air duct to the brakes this will help more than a bigger rotor and caliper. I did this on my other cars....ZL1 has this stuff stock.

Honestly the bigger caliper just gives the system potential to make more heat and if you are not prepared to handle the increased heat it won't help you much.
There is no stock sized 2 piece rotor for the V6 that I'm aware of, for starters. For instance, the racing brake 2 piece is only available for the SS, not my car. Secondly, the best pad I've found is the Hawk HP+ for the V6. There simply isn't the range of pads available for the V6 brakes as there are for the SS.

And honestly, Have you tried this? You have a ZL1. You have massive rotors up front. Massive!

There have been guys that have gone all out with the V6 brakes. Went with the JDP front brake cooling ducts, HP+ pads, and slotted and cross drilled rotors. Fade was still a big issue. They then went up to a more or less stock SS setup, and the fade became manageable.

Like, if the V6 brakes were perfectly acceptable on the track, then GM wouldn't have gone to Brembo's on the SS. Full stop. The V6 actually stops better than the SS does, for one stop. (106' vs 109' I think?). By your logic, the SS would just have better pads, and be race ready! Why add an expensive part with no benefit?

The SS rotors are between 30 and 35 % larger in terms of flat surface area. That's a pretty big difference. Given the better design of the brembo calipers and the size difference, I'd be willing to be that the actual cooling difference improvement in the stock setup is closer to 40%.

That's a pretty substantial difference.
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Old 12-27-2013, 08:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
So, i'm generally confused by your post Jessrayo.




There is no stock sized 2 piece rotor for the V6 that I'm aware of, for starters. For instance, the racing brake 2 piece is only available for the SS, not my car. Secondly, the best pad I've found is the Hawk HP+ for the V6. There simply isn't the range of pads available for the V6 brakes as there are for the SS.

And honestly, Have you tried this? You have a ZL1. You have massive rotors up front. Massive!

There have been guys that have gone all out with the V6 brakes. Went with the JDP front brake cooling ducts, HP+ pads, and slotted and cross drilled rotors. Fade was still a big issue. They then went up to a more or less stock SS setup, and the fade became manageable.

Like, if the V6 brakes were perfectly acceptable on the track, then GM wouldn't have gone to Brembo's on the SS. Full stop. The V6 actually stops better than the SS does, for one stop. (106' vs 109' I think?). By your logic, the SS would just have better pads, and be race ready! Why add an expensive part with no benefit?

The SS rotors are between 30 and 35 % larger in terms of flat surface area. That's a pretty big difference. Given the better design of the brembo calipers and the size difference, I'd be willing to be that the actual cooling difference improvement in the stock setup is closer to 40%.

That's a pretty substantial difference.
Sorry for the confusion. I did not realize that good 2 piece rotors and racing pads were not available in the V6 sizes. I can tell you that if the best pads you can find are hawk HP+ then you better get a different rotor/caliper because in my opinion those are crap at real racing speeds. I am in my first season racing these Camaros and as you pointed out I started with the ZL1 that has huge rotors.

The main point I was trying to make is, bigger is not necessarily better. The only thing I do not like about my Camaro is I think it is too heavy. I can pretty much guarentee you that the NASCAR braking systems have smaller rotors, calipers and pads than my ZL1 yet will stop just as well or better. All of this is unsprung weight, I merely suggested a smaller rotor and pad could do the job if the right combination was avbailable. From what you have posted, an SS upgrade my be a very good choice. I obviously have dumped a lot of money in my car but if I was complety swapping the rotors and calipers I would consider a full racing system from someone like brembo or wilwood just so I could save weight. You don't need a huge rotor to stop the car, you need an efficient one. If you want the convience of GM parts compatibility Then go with a proven combination like the SS or ZL1. I can tell you that the ZL1 parts do the job with absolutely no fade as long as you change to the right pads and fluid, even with 800 hp and race tires. Once again sorry for the confusion.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:47 PM   #34
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So... I'm going to have to take that back.

Apparently, You can get race pads for the V6. Carbotech, and Cobalt Friction both make race pads for the V6.

I spoke with Danny at Carbotech, and he said he would throw on the XP12 pads on front, and the XP8 pads on the rear.

The XP12 pads have a temp range of 250F to 2000F.

I'm now hoping that I won't have to upgrade to the Brembos. I still can't find a good 2-piece rotor, but there are some upgraded rotors available. To my knowledge, no one has tried these high performance pads on the Camaro V6.

2000F is well past the point where steel glows red hot, which is impressive... Hopefully this will provide me with the fade resistance I need.

If I can get away without the Brembo's I can save a substantial amount of money towards better tires or a separate set of rims with track tires. Or more racing instruction.

I'll give it a rip, and report back this spring.
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Old 01-16-2014, 01:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
So... I'm going to have to take that back.

Apparently, You can get race pads for the V6. Carbotech, and Cobalt Friction both make race pads for the V6.

I spoke with Danny at Carbotech, and he said he would throw on the XP12 pads on front, and the XP8 pads on the rear.

The XP12 pads have a temp range of 250F to 2000F.

I'm now hoping that I won't have to upgrade to the Brembos. I still can't find a good 2-piece rotor, but there are some upgraded rotors available. To my knowledge, no one has tried these high performance pads on the Camaro V6.

2000F is well past the point where steel glows red hot, which is impressive... Hopefully this will provide me with the fade resistance I need.

If I can get away without the Brembo's I can save a substantial amount of money towards better tires or a separate set of rims with track tires. Or more racing instruction.

I'll give it a rip, and report back this spring.
As long as the fluid holds up and the pads still bite the rotors really don't matter if they get hot. I tossed 2 sets of rotors that were full of heat cracks and then the mechanic at the race track told me that just because they look like shattered glass, doesn't effect the performance. My current set of front rotors are full of heat cracks and have done 3 track days without trouble. The paint on my calipers is burned from heat. Just make sure you regularly change the brake fluid and it will save weight and money.
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Old 01-16-2014, 01:54 PM   #36
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Get a good full faced helmet snell 2010. Make sure everything is working and tight and snug. Upgrade to dot4 fluid. Check brakes. Need good pads. Of course you can upgrade to ss brembos easily...or other options. Make sure tires are not damaged in any way. Go to track wanting to learn and stay withen your limits and have fun.

I would get good street performance tires...no need to go full bore before you know you wanna do it.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:20 PM   #37
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Get a good full faced helmet snell 2010. Make sure everything is working and tight and snug. Upgrade to dot4 fluid. Check brakes. Need good pads. Of course you can upgrade to ss brembos easily...or other options. Make sure tires are not damaged in any way. Go to track wanting to learn and stay withen your limits and have fun.

I would get good street performance tires...no need to go full bore before you know you wanna do it.
Helmet is definitely top of my list.

Local place I can get a snell 2010 helmet for around $150. Will change to a good high temp brake fluid before the event.

For tires, I'm either going with the Pirelli's or Pilot Super Sports. I may eventually go to a a seperate set of rims with R-Comps, but not for a few years.

I'm definitely going out there with no delusions of grandeur. I'm going out there to learn how to be a better driver. I've driven with a local guy (who is admittedly quite good), and I know I have a lot to learn! Should be fun!
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Old 01-16-2014, 05:11 PM   #38
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Go with SPCBA's recommendation. Keep it simple at first. There's a very good reason why you shouldn't upgrade your car's performance BEFORE you are comfortably in command of its stock performance. Risk. Yes more power and an upgraded suspension will perform better; especially in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, but in the hands of a novice it's way too easy to start driving faster than your skill level just because the hardware allows it. And then when you find yourself in trouble, you don't have the skill to safely drive your way out of it... and because you're going faster than your skill would have allowed with the stock setup, you're now far more likely to either do serious damage to your car; somebody else's car; and/or injury. Even death.

The faster you're going, the fewer seconds you have to recognize an issue and correct for it. Slower speeds allow for more time to make mistakes and fix them before you hit something. And in the process you're learning what mistakes "feel" like and what to do or not do to fix them. Seat time is more important for you now than car upgrades. Go with SPCBA's recommendation; it's spot on.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:42 PM   #39
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I'm real late to the party :(

2 years ago I took the stock pads off my v6 and put on Carbotech xp8 pads on all 4 corners. I have 2 years of street and track driving on them.
I can stand the little bit of cold squeal
Nothing better than being able to STAND on them at the 200 marker going into 11A and make the turn lap after lap.
I just need to get rid of the pesky 118 mph limiter now that I have better tires

Car works best on tight courses for me that's AMP, Barber, Roebling
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:07 PM   #40
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That's awesome data! Thanks!
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:14 PM   #41
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Just to confirm Jimbow...

You're doing this with the stock V6 Calipers? Not the SS brakes?
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:34 AM   #42
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I had stock SS wheels/tires on my ZL1 when my stock wheels were being painted and I noticed a HUGE difference in handling, I haven't had alot of different experiences besides that but based on that there is a huge difference with a good track/performance tire
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:08 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
Just to confirm Jimbow...

You're doing this with the stock V6 Calipers? Not the SS brakes?
Yep, stock v6 brakes.
I've been doing HPDE, Instructing and Time Trials for almost 20 years.

I was at Barber Motorsports Park last weekend.
Brakes - never boiled the fluid
They worked well (I need to check to see if I need new pads before the next event.
Before this event I changed to the RS rims and better tires (500 treadware)
Played a little with pressures, the tires worked better starting at 30psi
When I made a couple laps under 2 min I was happy and done for the weekend (as its set up a bonsai lap would be in the 1:40 range) which would have been a good time trial time. Since I was only instructing that 2 min time is my goal, keeps the tires from squealing at every turn but is quick enough to pass more folks than having folks pass me

I love this car - need to see if someone can remove the speed limiter and then it will be my non-race track car. I have a Corvette for my race car - need to get an engine in it. Maybe the weather gods will shine on me and I can get it ready for May.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:32 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Yep, stock v6 brakes.
I've been doing HPDE, Instructing and Time Trials for almost 20 years.

I was at Barber Motorsports Park last weekend.
Brakes - never boiled the fluid
They worked well (I need to check to see if I need new pads before the next event.
Before this event I changed to the RS rims and better tires (500 treadware)
Played a little with pressures, the tires worked better starting at 30psi
When I made a couple laps under 2 min I was happy and done for the weekend (as its set up a bonsai lap would be in the 1:40 range) which would have been a good time trial time. Since I was only instructing that 2 min time is my goal, keeps the tires from squealing at every turn but is quick enough to pass more folks than having folks pass me

I love this car - need to see if someone can remove the speed limiter and then it will be my non-race track car. I have a Corvette for my race car - need to get an engine in it. Maybe the weather gods will shine on me and I can get it ready for May.
I suspected those brakes would work fine if you had the right pads and the right fluid. I'm fairly certain any good tuner could remove the limiter for you. Just make some calls.
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:27 AM   #45
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I suspect that removing the speed limiter might be cause for stepping up a bit with the pads such as from XP8's to XP10's.

But without forced induction, or a pretty high entry speed to the longer straights, or straights effectively a bit longer than half a mile I'm wondering how much past about 120 you're actually going to see.

Your 2012 LS in stock tune runs about the same power as I have in my '08 GT, and I can touch just past 120 at NJMP/Lightning and get slowed enough for T1 to not squeal the tires, and that's with about 2600' to play with coming out of T9. That's a close enough match to what an acceleration sim predicts I need for distance to have some confidence in.

Your LS' brakes are fractionally bigger than mine (but have to deal with a couple hundred lbs or so more weight), and I was feeling some fade with XP8's toward the end of a 25 minute session in 50° weather with two hard braking zones spaced about half a lap apart.


Norm
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:04 PM   #46
jimbow
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
I suspect that removing the speed limiter might be cause for stepping up a bit with the pads such as from XP8's to XP10's.

But without forced induction, or a pretty high entry speed to the longer straights, or straights effectively a bit longer than half a mile I'm wondering how much past about 120 you're actually going to see.

Your 2012 LS in stock tune runs about the same power as I have in my '08 GT, and I can touch just past 120 at NJMP/Lightning and get slowed enough for T1 to not squeal the tires, and that's with about 2600' to play with coming out of T9. That's a close enough match to what an acceleration sim predicts I need for distance to have some confidence in.

Your LS' brakes are fractionally bigger than mine (but have to deal with a couple hundred lbs or so more weight), and I was feeling some fade with XP8's toward the end of a 25 minute session in 50° weather with two hard braking zones spaced about half a lap apart.


Norm
Barber - speed limiter not a problem
VIR, Road Atlanta, even CMP and Roebling - Speed limiter :(
VIR Back straight was the first time I saw that silly little message just as I was passing the south paddock, that's a long straight. I was sure I was gonna hit 140 and have to brake real early for the turn at the end.

Yea, when I get the speed limiter removed I'll be calling the good folks at Carbotech for a set of front XP10.
I run xp12/10 right now on my Corvette - I'll probably move to XP16 or 24/XP12 later this year (I think I got the numbers right - don't quote me on that)

I'm a Carbotech guy - especially after the guys in the C5 corvettes were cracking rotors every day using the Hawk DTC compounds
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