Top Gear Z/28 Review - "the results are both terrible and wonderful"

[DanSS24]

Originally Posted by brt3

Main advice is do NOT feed the trolls; without food they wither and die...

[FenwickHockey65]

I despise Toyota, but I don't waste my time joining Toyota forums to defend GM to the end.

Some people need a life.

[alaskacamaro]

Originally Posted by edco

Quote: They (Mustangs) have a fantastic engine in a chassis that doesn't hold a candle to a 1LE chassis.

While you are racing on U tube SCCA is racing on tracks. I think all these cars are fast. The results really don't underscore your point.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ed%20final.pdf (AS=American Sedan)

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...e%20final1.pdf

Why do people always forget to skill of a driver is as important as the quality of the car. You can take the finest tuned track car and it is still going to be only as good as the person behind the wheel.

That is why when they test a car, they use the equally skilled drivers and equal track conditions. Hell, you put a F1 driver in my 1997 Mazda Protégé and he/she would probably beat me around a track..

[Egon]

Originally Posted by edco

Quote: They (Mustangs) have a fantastic engine in a chassis that doesn't hold a candle to a 1LE chassis.

While you are racing on U tube SCCA is racing on tracks. I think all these cars are fast. The results really don't underscore your point.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ed%20final.pdf (AS=American Sedan)

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...e%20final1.pdf

You are seriously going to use a single purpose race prepped vehicle as an argument in your favor? Please read the SCCA GT1 rule book for a clue. (I underlined the appropriate sentence for you) There is very little if anything SCCA GT cars have in common with the vehicles we are currently discussing here. (except that they have 4 wheels or 5 if you consider a spare tire worth considering)



This is a picture of the car you listed above, the winner of the 2013 SCCA GT1 category. Please identify all stock components shared by street legal Mustangs so that we can compare apples to apples. Thanks.

[edco]

The Z/28 is a factory purpose built all out track car that is just the greatest. If anyone else builds a purpose built all out track car it does not count. In the GT1 class is it not a level playing field, same rules, same day, same weather, same track?

Egon, you are cherry picking. Did you read the results of the AS class. The point these results counter is "does not hold a candle to to 1LE." All of the cars are fast. My point is the Mustang chassis seems to be holding its own. The AS race is a certified show up or shut up event. It is not an internet stunt you make 28 takes to get a good one and then post the video. I grant you the GT1 modified class is a poor example. GT1 ran 5 minutes faster than AS class. Now what parts of the AS class are shared with the consumer cars? Enough to make the point the Mustang chassis holds a candle? That is the only point I am addressing.

Oh, now it is all about driver skill and that 1LE chassis advantage argument is forgotten. Lots of whinners in here.

[mlee]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Edco, you are clearly a Ford fanboy who isn't here to have an honest debate. I have no problem with Ford owners posting here if they want to be part of an honest and open discussion.

The 1LE is not a stand alone car. It is an option on the SS Camaro. It is a $3,500 option package. A base SS with the 1LE package will be less than $39,000.

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

What ever happened to "informed" opinions?

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

Google.com
Chevrolet.com

^^^^ What they said.

This conversation is all over the place... from spare tires to COPO. Hope you all are learning something...

Subscribed...

[McRat]

Originally Posted by edco

Quote: They (Mustangs) have a fantastic engine in a chassis that doesn't hold a candle to a 1LE chassis.

While you are racing on U tube SCCA is racing on tracks. I think all these cars are fast. The results really don't underscore your point.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...ed%20final.pdf (AS=American Sedan)

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...e%20final1.pdf

You read those links right?

The first one has Heinricy winning with a car that has been out of production for over 12 years. 4th gen Fbody.

GT1 has nothing to do with production cars. Heck, the Mustangs resemble a C7 more than the do anything ever sold by Ford.

[edco]

The AS class (American Sedan) SCCA cars are all stock bodies and chassis. The pictures are many places on the SCCA websites. Those S197s that do not hold a candle were competitive.

The photo below researches the GT1 class. The #6 car (the 2013 GT1 winner) is a Boss 302 with a body kit manufactured in Puerto Rico, in use since 2009. The Boss K-member, front sub frame, rear sub frame, power plant, transmission, drive line, 3.73 rear gear solid 8.8 axle, control arms, struts, and links are all factory Boss. And of course "it does not hold a candle"

The race results should tell you where to hold that candle.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Egon

You are seriously going to use a single purpose race prepped vehicle as an argument in your favor?

The race car tangent grew out of this ↓↓↓ , and the S197 chassis is not nearly as poor as "not holding a candle to the 1LE chassis" implies.

Originally Posted by joelster

They have a fantastic engine in a chassis that doesn't hold a candle to a 1LE chassis.

The Fox/SN95 chassis was an entirely different story. Fortunately, not all stick axle chassis cars are stuck at that level.

Fantastic engine, yes, but under some (many?) situations Ford's OE ECU tuning leaves a lot to be desired - most of it having to do with overly aggressive throttle tip-in response. I guess that's a good thing for impressing Harry High-School and his buddies, but it's terrible for throttle modulation in a high-g corner.

The 1LE chassis probably does have a little more potential than Ford's better S197 offerings, but it isn't perfect either. Then too, Ford appears to have taken a slightly more conservative path with their cornering/handling tuning than necessary, so there's more "low hanging fruit" to work with. I suspect that if you were to pick whatever you could fit from the best 1LE features and the best Boss/Boss LS features (leaving out the Boss LS' R-compound tires for comparisons involving the 1LE) you could work up a base GT to be better than the stock versions of both the Boss and the 1LE.

For now I'm limiting this to typical road course or autocross surfaces because you can't prove much of anything about chassis performance in a street setting.


Norm

[edco]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The race car tangent grew out of this ↓↓↓ , and the S197 chassis is not nearly as poor as "not holding a candle to the 1LE chassis" implies.


The Fox/SN95 chassis was an entirely different story. Fortunately, not all stick axle chassis cars are stuck at that level.

Fantastic engine, yes, but under some (many?) situations Ford's OE ECU tuning leaves a lot to be desired - most of it having to do with overly aggressive throttle tip-in response. I guess that's a good thing for impressing Harry High-School and his buddies, but it's terrible for throttle modulation in a high-g corner.

The 1LE chassis probably does have a little more potential than Ford's better S197 offerings, but it isn't perfect either. Then too, Ford appears to have taken a slightly more conservative path with their cornering/handling tuning than necessary, so there's more "low hanging fruit" to work with. I suspect that if you were to pick whatever you could fit from the best 1LE features and the best Boss/Boss LS features (leaving out the Boss LS' R-compound tires for comparisons involving the 1LE) you could work up a base GT to be better than the stock versions of both the Boss and the 1LE.

For now I'm limiting this to typical road course or autocross surfaces because you can't prove much of anything about chassis performance in a street setting.


Norm

Excellent post!

[edco]

Some SCCA GT1 class vettes are pictured. The stock Corvette has a terrific IRS, front and rear aluminum sub frames, fiberglass body, race proven LS power, lowest weight, lowest drag factor of all US built performance cars and is an excellent sports car in stock trim. These vehicles do not look exactly stock. They are running LS 6.2 or 7.0 power. Under GT1 rules, stripping the pollution controls, changing the exhaust manifolds for long tube stainless headers (side ported), forged internals, 5 axis CNC ported heads, competition grind cams, 60KVolt COPS, Silver racing large gaped indexed plugs, dry sump lube, electric water pump, custom tune, competition intake plenum, under drive accessory pack, stage 3 kevlar clutch, and perhaps an aluminum fly wheel are all fair game.

That "cannot hold a candle Boss 302" hardware ran well in a field dominated by competition vettes. It was a level playing field. It counts for something.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by edco

Some SCCA GT1 class vettes are pictured. The stock Corvette has a terrific IRS, front and rear aluminum sub frames, lowest drag factor of all US built cars and is an excellent sports car in stock trim. These vehicles do not look exactly stock. They are running LS 6.2 or 7.0 power. Under GT1 rules, stripping the pollution controls, changing the exhaust manifolds for long tube stainless headers, forged internals, 5 axis CNC ported heads, competition grind cams, 60KVolt COPS, Silver racing large gaped indexed plugs, dry sump lube, electric water pump, custom tune, competition intake plenum, under drive accessory pack, stage 3 kevlar clutch, and perhaps an aluminum fly wheel is all fair game.

That "cannot hold a candle Boss 302" hardware ran well with a field dominated by competition vettes. It was a level playing field. It counts for something.

So you went from talking about how much better a BOSS was as an everyday street car when compared to a Z/28 to talking about track only race cars??? You sound a lot like thePill now. Show your ignorance so you change the argument.

[edco]

Pictured is the September 23, 2013 V6 AS class SCCA finish. Any stock components here? The S197 'don't hold a candle chassis' finished 1 and 2.
That #31 car is a grabber orange 2007. However it does not hold a candle to my GT, that is a V8.

This should bring rain. Beat me daddy A to the bar.

[edco]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

So you went from talking about how much better a BOSS was as an everyday street car when compared to a Z/28 to talking about track only race cars??? You sound a lot like thePill now. Show your ignorance so you change the argument.

Play Fair. I am replying to the Egon and 'don't hold a candle' posters.
Why don't you jump on those guys?