Top Gear Z/28 Review - "the results are both terrible and wonderful"

[davidcroft]

I wanna see Jeremy Clarkson talk about it on an actual episode. He always has something to say about yank tanks!

to the ford fan boy in this thread....you drive a 3V 4ptsux(300 crank) and showed a picture of a rim/tire with a 235. Tell me about how fast fords are when you get a real one or go post some kills in the V6 section.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by edco

Expunge: Does GM own the patent on IRS? Did they not copy it?
The 2000 Mustang Cobra has IRS and Camaro forgot to sue for patent infringement right? Repeating earlier posts: the S197 was designed with IRS.
When introduced pre-production to the largest Mustang clubs of America the members rebelled and insisted on the solid axle.

Originally Posted by edco

Hau Tai Tang, the designer, went back to the drawing board and redesigned the rear end with the 8.8" solid axle.

Because drag racing.

Don't get me wrong - I'll tell anybody who will listen that a well done stick axle suspension > an indifferently or poorly done IRS. Ten or twelve years ago there was quite a lot of discussion on a not-really-a-Mustang forum about the merits of the 3-link vs the then-current Mustang's triangulated 4-link, and the Cobra's IRS in production form was hardly any less compromised.

Perhaps you should investigate the topic of unsprung mass relative to sprung mass to understand what independent suspensions are nearly always better at doing. Don't forget that there haven't been any cars produced with beam axles up front for several decades.

Lets talk about Camaro IRS. I have been under a camaro and find the four fixed link stamped sheet steel control arms a compromise (as in cheap) design. Does anyone know if the Z28 XLe ZL1 share the same IRS control arms? For the price of those vehicles the buyer should get chromolly- tubular-thread adjustable-spherical rod end controls arms.

Exactly what do you find wrong with fixed length stamped steel control links? I mean, other than they apparently offend your appearance sensibilities - I trust you'll at least agree that they're strong enough such that they won't buckle if you look at them cross-eyed, and that a ditch episode is likely an event that exceeds reasonable design (wouldn't you really rather bend a few suspension links than pass the higher loads from stronger links on to the main chassis, and bend/crack/tear that instead?).

Consider also that as soon as you add more adjustability, you create more places for alignment errors to creep in, either during production or later when the car is in service.

I'm talking about the average street-driven car here, not the dedicated or semi-dedicated track car that is likely to have its alignment tweaked by various means regardless of whether such adjustability was provided by the mfr.

CAD drawings of the 2015 mustang IRS are on the opposite web site. There is no resemblance to what is under your camaro. It is Ford truck tough. Go look.

Time and a little experience will tell if the integral link and its geometry is better, worse, or essentially equal to what's under the current Camaro.

ZL1 with magnetic suspension. A Cadillac component right? Do you need it?
Where on the street is it ever better than a well tuned monotube gas/oil system. On a track, yes. Oh I am sorry, I am in the wrong forum all of you guys are professional racers hauling your ZL1s in a trailer to the track.

At the track you need to be concerned with performance to the near-total exclusion of ride quality, so unless you're intentionally running over some of the rougher FIA curbs at the track, magnetic suspension is more reasonable for a street-driven high-performance car where the ability to shift the ride-handling compromise on the fly matters. As to the expense of maintaining such a system, I don't know. What I do understand is that you do not have any adjustment capability over whatever compromises went into the mag-ride programming. IOW, it's not like Koni yellows where you can tweak the transient behavior by turning a few adjustment screws.


Norm

[SGOS252382]

Originally Posted by brt3

Based on the reaction from the Boss 302 Club members, over the weekend at Thunderhill, I believe you're wrong. They were incredibly jazzed about my car and had a ton of questions. After watching and hearing it on track, I think they were impressed.

Question: do you spend more time trolling or track driving? Enquiring minds want to know...

The 1LE Camaro SS beat the Boss 302 by close to 2.0 sec around a rather short track.
There haven't been a lot of direct comparisons, but one magazine did run the two cars agaisnt each other (same pro driver, same day, same track) and the 1LE's times were considerably faster than the Boss.

Z28 vs Boss 302 would be a joke of a race (stock vs stock).

[URBAN LEGEND]

What a fu*kfest this thread has become.

[McRat]

It must have been the tires. The Boss has Pirelli PZero Corsas, which are virtually snow tires, while the 1LE has NASCAR slicks that have been rebadged as Goodyear Eagle F1's.

Because the Stang is lighter and has more HP.

Seriously the Corsas are very good tires. Never been a fan of anything Goodyear sells the public.

[102SS]

Typical crap from 2.0L turbo loving fairies.

They just don't understand us or our cars,they prefer scalpels to sledgehammers.

Give me the sledgehammer everytime.

[PeeBee]

Originally Posted by edco

All right, Z28 is purpose built track car, not for the road/street. Understood.
The Boss 302 is a street car. The purpose built 302 track version is pictured below, it has one seat. The Z-28 can wrangle with that. Z/28 has a 2.0 liter displacement advantage.

With all due respect, the BOSS 302 is a street car, built with track driving in mind, and the 1LE definitely suits better to be compared to a BOSS 302. The Z/28 has the same ideas behind it, built as a fast, track ready car, with some daily driver "luxury items" being compromised.

You do however seem to forget that, despite the "two liter disadvantage" compared to the Z, the Mustang features 4 valves per cylinder? Apples, oranges?

[mangloid]

I don't get the hate between Camaros and mustang. We all bought "American" muscle. Its been shown that Z/28, Camaro ZL1, 302 and GT500 can have good track times for their respective classes. We all bought based on preferences. I use to own a 67 stang, I thought it was a great car. But I enjoyed my 84 Monte carlo SS more. And honestly, the styling of the camaro slightly reminds me of it which is why I bought one. It's all opinions, and the differences between the two drive competition. It's great.

As for Top Gear: They have ripped on a ton of auto makers foreign and domestic. Some of it is for ratings / TV enjoyability, and some for seriousness. I look at top gear as a showcase for vehicles that puts viewer enjoyability over hard reviews. If I wanted a show that was 100% about the merits of a car, I'd expect the reviewers to be full time race drivers.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by davidcroft

to the ford fan boy in this thread....you drive a 3V 4ptsux(300 crank) and showed a picture of a rim/tire with a 235. Tell me about how fast fords are when you get a real one or go post some kills in the V6 section.

I'm nobody's fan boy no matter what I happen to be driving, but there are a few things that will prod a response out of me.

Given that this is at least nominally a Z/28 and track thread, let's at least stick to discussions related to cornering and the technical sections of a road course where power is not particularly a factor. I've got a 4.6L/3V GT as well, and I really don't give a rat's ass about being "killed" in a straight line. Or even by what.

Ford's use of 235-wide tires is hardly any worse than the 245-wide front tires on the non-1LE SS, just that Ford dropped the ball by never doing a proper 1LE sort of tire package. But if you're careful, 285/35's on 11" wheels (front and rear both) can work. All of the tread is under the fenders as seen from above and there is no rubbing. Time and a track day or two will tell how well it works relative to the 1LE.





Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by DuhKoDuh

I'm not sure why you keep calling the Mustang "balanced".... BODY ROLL!!

"Body roll" does not necessarily say anything about a car's balance while cornering. If you can easily steer the car with the throttle, which you absolutely can do in a Mustang even as the tires at both ends are squealing, your car's balance is actually pretty good.

If you notice "body roll" that much while you're driving through a corner and you aren't a test driver trying to refine the chassis tuning, your mind is on the wrong things and you'll be going slower than you might be able to otherwise.


Norm

[Angrybird 12]

Someone needs to change the title of the thread and move it to the VS section, it's no longer about Top Gear's review of the Z/28....

[Melkor]

Originally Posted by bluBlud

I love car shows but can't watch Top Gear, or Fifth Gear - they just can't ever say anything good about an American car. In fact, I've even watched shows where they'd praise everything about a non-US car then comment on things like the "dreadful American transmission" that it might have. They're clearly biased so I choose to not watch or put much faith in their opinions/reviews.

Actually, they have very nice things to say about a lot of Fords. The Focus and Fiesta ST models get a lot of love from Top Gear.

My biggest problem is that they'll review cars side by side that are COMPLETELY different cars. Like the Camaro SS vs. the Merc AMG. And then they say things like, "Sure, the Merc is twice the price, but it's twice the car." Well, duh shit! That's the only thing that infuriates me. Other than that, love the show

[Arbgast]

Originally Posted by crusher

I use to enjoy Top Gear...until they compared the camaro ss to a nearly double the price Mercedes. What a crock...you would think they'd compare two cars that someone might be trying to decide between buying. The more I watched the more the unfair comparison pissed me off. I didn't see the Z/28 comparison but can imagine the crap being spewed by the oversized blowfish. Ironically, the little fellow preferred it over the Mercedes!

You are spot on. They are the same that compare a welterweight to a heavyweight and than say the heavyweight wins. How about welterweight to welterweight. If
It is american let's stack the odds. Imo

[Melkor]

Also, let's not forget that they DO have some valid criticisms of a lot of the cars they review. The Corvette starts falling apart ON THE TEST TRACK, but Jeremy still liked it. The Challenger was covered in fake carbon fiber and fake ram air scoops but Richard still adored it.

American Muscle Cars have some issues, but their speedy, cool looking, and at a price that blue collar workers can afford them and that's cool! They do the same thing with some European cars. Like the Maserati Quattroporte which they all loved despite the fact that it was slower than the other cars tested, was complicated to operate, and Maseratis are notorious for falling apart.

I think sometimes we're a little sensitive to how they review American cars because, well, we're American.