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Old 11-03-2007, 07:19 AM   #197
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Yeah, it doesn't take 10 years for technology to trickle down from the luxury brands to the entry level brands.
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:52 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Plus, all Gen V's are supposed to be DI, AFM, VVT, E85 capable (the whole shebang)...
This is what reaaaallllly has me excited. I want my city mpg's at 35mpg's minimum!!! That's not too much to ask, now is it?
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:41 PM   #199
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I dont think as of now that DOD or AFM will be available in the Camaro's because of performance in mind. Although i could be wrong I've heard a bunch going both ways. The DOD has one major flaw in my mind and that is that it is computer controlled off of torque demand and throttle which i believe it should be completely user controlled and be turned on and off like traction control or overdrive. In 6th gear with DOD on you would be getting above 35 mpg because the car would still be geared like a big v8 but dropping down have the displacement in an overdrive that could be .4 to 1.

Also we already know the LS3 is VVT and it will definetly support E85 but the thing is how much fuel economy will we get with E85 in a high reving large displacement motor. As for DI any DI V8 is two years in the work and I cant tell you what but it will be in the luxury models just like the V6 was. Think of the flagship for the luxury models, but its a luxury option and as of now it is not mentioned to be anything else. Dont think it will drop down the lower market soon because the only reason the 3.6 will be offered in the Camaro is because the cadalliac engineers are working on it. I never said the techonology was being dropped.

The LS3 will be in the car. THe LS2 is dead end of story. I dont mean to upset you guys. Just what i know. You can wait to see for yourself though.
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:54 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Radcannon View Post
I dont think as of now that DOD or AFM will be available in the Camaro's because of performance in mind. Although i could be wrong I've heard a bunch going both ways. The DOD has one major flaw in my mind and that is that it is computer controlled off of torque demand and throttle which i believe it should be completely user controlled and be turned on and off like traction control or overdrive. In 6th gear with DOD on you would be getting above 35 mpg because the car would still be geared like a big v8 but dropping down have the displacement in an overdrive that could be .4 to 1.

Also we already know the LS3 is VVT and it will definetly support E85 but the thing is how much fuel economy will we get with E85 in a high reving large displacement motor. As for DI any DI V8 is two years in the work and I cant tell you what but it will be in the luxury models just like the V6 was. Think of the flagship for the luxury models, but its a luxury option and as of now it is not mentioned to be anything else. Dont think it will drop down the lower market soon because the only reason the 3.6 will be offered in the Camaro is because the cadalliac engineers are working on it. I never said the techonology was being dropped.

The LS3 will be in the car. THe LS2 is dead end of story. I dont mean to upset you guys. Just what i know. You can wait to see for yourself though.
The LS2 won't be going in, we all know that, but that doesn't automatically mean the LS3 is going in for sure either. Or it might be, but may not be the only V8. There is still the G8's L79 that obviously already works well with the Zeta platform AND has AFM. From all reports I've heard AFM has really no impact on performance. It is set up well so that it turns off 4 cylinders when you really don't need the power, but comes on seamlessly when you do. From all the reviews on it, I have never heard one major complaint about performance. Chevy did say on the auto show circuit that the Camaro would have AFM, and as much as they want performance, they also have to keep fuel economy in mind also in the face of rising CAFE requirements.

Also, we don't know if the 3.6 DI engine will be going into the Camaro. It might, or it might not. No one can say at all what the engines really will be because GM has confirmed nothing specific yet, just that it will have choices ranging from V6s to V8s.

Given that GM is really going all out to beat the competition with the Camaro, and is debuting it after a very long development time, I don't think it is too far fetched to think we might get the Gen Vs after all. What better way to show them off? They might not even come in the first year, but perhaps after a while. Really no one knows, so it is best to not use absolute phrases for now.
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Old 11-04-2007, 06:30 PM   #201
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You guys dont seem to confident so i wont continue to tell you guys things but as for the 3.6 it has been confirmed along with a 3.9 reaserch it.
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Old 11-04-2007, 06:32 PM   #202
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Well we asked you before what your sources are. If you know all these concrete details, we want to know the source before relying on them.
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Old 11-04-2007, 09:16 PM   #203
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Quote:
You guys dont seem to confident so i wont continue to tell you guys things but as for the 3.6 it has been confirmed along with a 3.9 reaserch it.
Show me a link or give me a contact with gm.. Until then its internet rumor.

The reason I don't believe you is because fbodfather posted that NOTHING has been released other than "there will be a V6 and a V8 with both manual and auto options" and yes I can provide links.
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Old 11-04-2007, 09:20 PM   #204
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thumbsdown at the negativity in here...
I appreciate your input, RadCannon, really, I do....but I have to doubt, my rule of thumb is to automatically review everything a person/source/article says if one thing is wrong....what? you may ask, well: The LS3 is not VVT, and as far as I know, it doesn't support E85. That's when my rule take effect, you see.
Secondly, No. The 3.6 has NOT been confirmed...you'd think an entire site of fact-hungry Camaro enthusiasts would have found even a rumor of that by now?

I'll ask that if you have any other "facts" that you please list a source...

Quelling any further argument.......now. (meaning I'm gonna delete any other arguments........don't like doing that)
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:16 PM   #205
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Are u sure about the LS3 not being variable valve timing?? I wouldnt be suprised about the E85. I know alot of sources in GM ive already seen a real LS3 in a car and ridden it. I am not really at liberty to start saying all my sources i have alot of them and one some issues they say different things but they are in GM.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:58 AM   #206
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I remember a while back when Dragon printed (w/ sources) that the LS3 woudn't have VVT. It was in a discussion over the Gen V engines. I'm searching for it, but can't seem to come across it. Give me some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I found this on the L92 (the 6.2 L Casull was talking about) engine info page, which is said to be the base for the LS3

The Vortec 6.2L brings GM Powertrain’s industry first cam-in-block variable valve timing (VVT), or cam phasing, to the small block V8. VVT eliminates the compromise inherent in conventional fixed valve timing and allows a previously unattainable mix of low-rpm torque, even torque delivery over a broad range of engines speeds, and free-breathing high-rev horsepower.

The cam-phasing system in the Vortec 6.2L is similar in concept to that introduced in GM’s 3.9L and 3.5L V6 car engines for 2006. The 6.2L’s dual-equal cam phaser adjusts camshaft timing at the same rate for both intake and exhaust valves. A vane-type phaser is installed on the cam sprocket to turn the camshaft relative to the sprocket, thereby adjusting the timing of valve operation.

The vain phaser is actuated by hydraulic pressure from engine oil, and managed by a solenoid that controls oil pressure on the phaser. The phaser uses a wheel or rotor with four vanes (like a propeller) to turn the camshaft relative to the cam sprocket, which turns at a fixed rate via chain from the crankshaft. The solenoid directs oil to pressure points on either side of the four phaser vanes; the vanes, and camshaft, turn in the direction of the oil flow. The more pressure, the more the phaser and camshaft turn. The Vortec 6.2L’s new E38 engine control module (below) directs the phaser to advance or retard cam timing, depending on driving demands. The dual-equal phaser can turn the camshaft over a range of 31 degrees relative to the cam sprocket (or 17 degrees advance, 45 degrees retard relative to the crank).

The benefits are considerable. The cam phaser changes valve timing on the fly, maximizing engine performance for given demands and conditions. At idle, for example, the cam is at the full advanced position. That allows exceptionally smooth idling. Under other operating demands, the phaser adjusts to deliver optimal valve timing for performance, drivability and fuel economy. At high rpm it might retard timing to maximize airflow through the engine and increase horsepower. At low rpm it can advance timing to increase torque. Under a light load (say, casual everyday driving), it can retard timing at all engine speeds to improve fuel economy. Without cam phasing, a cam design must be biased toward one strength or another—high-end horsepower or low-end torque, for example—or profiled at some compromise level that maximizes neither.

Variable valve timing allows linear delivery of torque, with near-peak levels over a broad rpm range, and high specific output (horsepower per liter of displacement) without sacrificing overall engine response, or drivability. It also provides another effective tool for controlling exhaust emissions. Because it manages valve overlap at optimum levels, it eliminates the need for an Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system.
NOW I"M CONFUSED.
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Old 11-05-2007, 05:49 AM   #207
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Anyway, if it were my call to do the engine lineup at launch, I'd do 1 or 2 V6s and 2ish V8s. For the V6 options, it would be 1 or 2 of the following: the 3.5 liter pushrod for its fuel economy and low price, the 3.6 high feature as it is emerging as the new standard V6 for GM with good power and decent economy, or the 3.6 liter DI for its improved power and economy. The DI would be too expensive to have as the only V6, so I imagine they might have either the 3.5 or 3.6, or both, or one of those and the DI as an upgrade. For V8 models, I would make an entry level V8 with the L79 out of the G8 as it has all the fuel saving features and apparently doesn't cost much as they managed to keep the G8 pretty affordable given its features and size. Then for SS and Z28 models I'd use the LS3, uptuned slightly for whichever level is higher, along with better suspension and the other upgrades that would go along with that.

This is just my wishlist, but it would seem to be logical speculation at what GM might do.
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:42 AM   #208
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This is the most "fullfilling" conversation we've had in a while...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radcannon View Post
Are u sure about the LS3 not being variable valve timing?? I wouldnt be suprised about the E85. I know alot of sources in GM ive already seen a real LS3 in a car and ridden it. I am not really at liberty to start saying all my sources i have alot of them and one some issues they say different things but they are in GM.
I'm almost positive about no VVT...but as for no being at liberty, it's cool - I wouldn't want any trouble w/ leaks and such...But, I think you can inderstand, that it'll be hard to take your words for gospel, you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAG UR IT View Post
I remember a while back when Dragon printed (w/ sources) that the LS3 woudn't have VVT. It was in a discussion over the Gen V engines. I'm searching for it, but can't seem to come across it. Give me some time.


NOW I"M CONFUSED.
That was the L92: Aussie engine, and US truck engine if I remember that far back...The L92 had VVT, yes...and the L76(is that the engine you're talking about stovt001?) had both VVT AND AFM, I think...hang on, gm.com here I come:

GM powertrain


Okay, you're just gonna have to trust me on this...the writeup on the L76 is super-long....but I'm 90% certain now that this will be the "base V8", unless they come out with a magic Gen V by then...anywho:

NOTE: all following info is G8 specific.

This is the intro-list: I bolded the important stuff
Quote:
2008 “L76” 6.0L V8 (L76)

6.0L Gen IV V8 (L76) CAR ENGINE
2008 Model Year Summary

· Active Fuel Management Calibrated For Pontiac G8 GT Passenger Car
· Structural Cast Aluminum Oil Pan Specific To G8
· Intake Manifold From LS3 Corvette Application
· Induction SystemSpecific To G8
· Exhaust Manifolds Design Specific To G8
· Electronic Throttle Control From LS3 V8 Application
· Gen IV Cast Aluminum Cylinder Block
· High-Flow Cylinder Heads
· Returnless Fuel Injection with Stainless Steel Fuel Rail
· Advanced Electronic Throttle Control Similar To LS3 V8
· E38 Engine Control Module
· 58X Ignition System
· Enhanced Noise, Vibration and Harshness Control
· Smaller Ignition Coils From LS3 V8
· Iridium Tip Spark Plugs
No VVT. The truck versions have VVT...which means it's definitely possible to do.

A note on AFM (somebody mentioned cost):

"The only mechanical components required are special valve lifters for cylinders that are deactivated, and their control system. The incremental cost for the customer is nominal per engine."

AND, this made me happy:
"It’s validated to achieve 200,000 miles of operation in typical applications.".

NOW, the LS3.
This is the entire writeup on the LS3:
Quote:
2008 “LS3” 6.2L V8 (LS3)
6.2L V8 (LS3) CAR ENGINE
Description of New and Update Features



· Displacement increase to 6.2L from the 6.0L LS2

· Performance enhancement from base Corvette LS2

· SAE Certified Power & Torque

· Horsepower increase from 400 to 430

· Torque increase from 400 to 424 lb.ft.

· Additional +6 Hp increase with optional active exhaust system
  • High flow cylinder heads
  • Enhanced valvetrain
  • Higher flow intake manifold with acoustic shell
  • Larger bore block with structural improvements
  • New pistons
  • Higher flow injectors
  • Acoustic beauty cover
Overview
For 2008, General Motors Powertrain engineers have again added a performance kick to the Corvette base engine with introduction of the new LS3 6.2L engine which replaces the LS2. The 2008 6.2L LS3 V8 with 430 Hp @ 5900 rpm and 424 lb.ft. torque @ 4600 rpm is the most powerful Corvette base engine ever and is SAE Certified for 2008 model year.

The LS3 engineering team focused on design elements to increase flow efficiency in addition to the displacement increase to meet the performance enhancement. The bore was increased to a larger 103.25 mm diameter compared to the LS2 bore of 101.6. Engine stroke remains at 92.0mm. Intake flow efficiency was optimized by straightening out and optimizing the flow path from the intake manifold into the cylinder heads. A high flow efficiency induction system is borrowed from the Z06 application. The cylinder head exhaust ports have been modified to increase flow. Also now available in the Corvette with the LS3 is a butterfly valve in the exhaust system which opens at high exhaust flow levels and by-passes the “tri-flow” S-shaped path the exhaust gases normally follow. This reduces exhaust restriction, yet allows the Corvette LS3 to hum at a more muted burble during part-throttle operation. The LS3 also meets the more stringent Bin4 emission standards and again avoids the gas guzzler tax. The small block tradition of more for less continues.

High Flow Cylinder Heads
The intake port shape size and shape have been modified to increase flow. The higher flow intake ports are similar to the L92 6.2L. Casting changes were made to increase the opening at the exhaust face to improve exhaust port flow. A new exhaust manifold opening is required to match the heads.

Enhanced valvetrain
The inlet rocker arm is offset 6 mm between the valve tip and rocker bolt/push rod to enable a more direct intake port. The intake valve diameter is increased from 50.8 to 55.0 mm. Hollow stem intake were implemented to enable the 6600 rpm capability (13% reduction in mass from LS2). The 40.4 mm diameter exhaust valves are carried over from L92. Carryover LS2 high load valve springs are also included for 6600 rpm capability. Intake lift increases from 13.25mm to 14.0mm. Exhaust lobes are carryover LS2. Camshaft timing is revised.
Higher flow intake manifold with acoustic shell
Intake ports revised to match new cylinder head. The new composite intake manifold is manufactured with a lost core process to improve runner to runner variation and to reduce flow losses. Acoustic foam is sandwiched between the outside top of the intake manifold and an additional “skull cap” acoustic shell to reduce radiated engine noise. Structural enhancements have been added to the manifold bosses.

Larger bore block with structural improvements
Casting and machining in the bulkheads was revised to improve block structure and to improve bay to bay breathing. The enhanced cylinder block is shared with the the 6.2L truck applications.

New Pistons
A new larger diameter piston design is introduced for which includes design enhancements for the higher engine output.

Higher Flow Injectors
Higher flow 5.0 g/s injectors were used from the LS7 engine.

New Acoustic / Beauty Cover
The new beauty cover has a revised appearance and new acoustic treatment
Definitley a race-bred engine, with no extensive fuel-saving ideas like the L76. Not that that's a bad thing. IMO, for a cheaper, more realistic, everyday V8 Camaro...my money's on the L76. possibly with a little more oomf
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:47 AM   #209
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Thanks Dragon, yes, I did mean L76. I agree, it does seem designed to be the perfect lower level V8 in the Camaro. I wouldn't mind an LS3 of course, but I think there are real cost and fuel efficiency advantages to the L76 that make it ideal as the base V8.

And then there are the Gen Vs, the great unknown. Whatever they come out like, that could change everything. This sure will be an interesting year.

Again, thanks for the research.
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:41 AM   #210
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No kidding, right?! We need to copy, paste that for the engine thread!
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