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Old 01-11-2012, 10:48 PM   #169
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I knew I was in the wrong business! I'm going to head out to one of the economic free zones in Dubai and use my savings to incorporate a business and buy factory space to crank out cheap duplicates of American performance products of which I hold no patents or intellectual rights! And no American company will have any hope of being able to prosecute me for it or keep my copies of their products out of the marketplace! And I'll even undercut MarylandSpeed's Chinese CAI because I'm going to hire Pakistanis and pay them with basmati rice!

And I'll make a ton of money because so many consumers are so willfully ignorant of where the products they buy are coming from and what the impact is on the marketplace and legitimate businesses at home and abroad. Who cares, as long as you're saving a buck?
It's all just bent pipe anyway right?
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:56 PM   #170
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It's all just bent pipe anyway right?
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Old 01-11-2012, 11:46 PM   #171
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Awesome did you see the headers Im gonna build?

I think im gonna start selling titanium/stainless/carbonfiber super headers. Ill make a commercial in time lapse photography. You'll see a car sitting on street with buildings all around. Then the time lapse will start, 100 years, 500 years, 1000 years and as all the buildings become engulfed in plant life so does the car. Humans are long gone and mother nature takes back the streets and buildings. Now the next ice age starts and whats left of the car becomes encased in 100' of ice for 10,000 years. Next the ice thaws and the tiny bit of car that is left is now under a ocean. When the water finally subsides all that's left on a grassy hill is a set of headers. My slogan will be "$3000 for headers but they'll last 300,000 years"

Ill build them in the US for $300, get some fancy brand name, mark them up %500, tell everyone that I needed a $300,000 machine and nasa engineers to design and build them. Then i'll go around on the forums and bad mouth anyone who's buys anything less. I'll beat them over the head with my propaganda till they agree to buy them just to shut me up.

How am i doing guys?
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:32 AM   #172
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Premium headers aren't marked up. They cost more to design and produce. You'd probably be surprised to see the profit margin on a set of headers from Kooks or ARH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss/rs-matt
Awesome did you see the headers Im gonna build?

I think im gonna start selling titanium/stainless/carbonfiber super headers. Ill make a commercial in time lapse photography. You'll see a car sitting on street with buildings all around. Then the time lapse will start, 100 years, 500 years, 1000 years and as all the buildings become engulfed in plant life so does the car. Humans are long gone and mother nature takes back the streets and buildings. Now the next ice age starts and whats left of the car becomes encased in 100' of ice for 10,000 years. Next the ice thaws and the tiny bit of car that is left is now under a ocean. When the water finally subsides all that's left on a grassy hill is a set of headers. My slogan will be "$3000 for headers but they'll last 300,000 years"

Ill build them in the US for $300, get some fancy brand name, mark them up %500, tell everyone that I needed a $300,000 machine and nasa engineers to design and build them. Then i'll go around on the forums and bad mouth anyone who's buys anything less. I'll beat them over the head with my propaganda till they agree to buy them just to shut me up.

How am i doing guys?
This thread has officially jumped the shark.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:55 AM   #173
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Premium headers aren't marked up. They cost more to design and produce. You'd probably be surprised to see the profit margin on a set of headers from Kooks or ARH.



This thread has officially jumped the shark.
I guess man, I'm over it. I got a great deal and my car runs like a champ. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to PM me.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:08 AM   #174
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People make the mistake of looking at what materials costs and not the overhead. A header is nothing but pipe and flanges...maybe $100 in material right. That ignores some of the following things.
  • To even start to design a header, you need someone really experianced who makes a lot of money.
  • On top of that guy, today to get the best fit, they use CMM machines, which are several thousand dollars. The guy who programs it is pretty expensive too.
  • Once you get a header prototyped, you have to produce it, so you need CNC benders. Again, this is several thousand dollars, and the guy who programs and mantains it costs alot.
  • Now you need flanges...time for a CNC laser cutter. Again..several thousand dollars..and expensive guy to program/operate.
  • There are other machines along the way to expand, notch, and otherwise machine the various connections.
  • Now you have to make a fixture...the best fixtures cost a lot
  • Now you have to assemble the headers. These headers are TIG welded, which takes 3x as long, and requires a welder who is more experianced and makes premium money.
  • Once those are done, then you have to have someone mill and machine the headers to the high standard customers expect.
  • Wait..now you need gaskets, bolts, and so forth. These are things you buy thousands at a time. Lots of money up front.
  • Then you have to have someone to clean package and box them.
And then you actually have to make this a business which means-
  • You have to have a building and maintain it. Pay property tax, facility insurance, and so forth.
  • You have to have insurance on the liability related to products you sell. Again expensive.
  • All the employees want competitive salaries, health insurance, workers comp, and so forth.
  • You have to do marketing. Customers don't want to pay for marketing supposedly..but I wonder how many exhausts have been sold because of Borla's video showing their three exhausts that is all over the forum? Everyone goes crazy for stickers, pins, hats, shirts..but that stuff costs serious money if you do volume. Nice shirts are $8-10 depending on design. Hats $10-15. Process 1000 orders, and give a free shirt or hat away with each one, you just spent $10,000 in marketing.
  • Continuing on marketing..customers don't feel like they should have to pay for marketing in the cost of products. But then they want companies to sponsor their cars, or whatever show they have. You have to sponsor forums like this because when a customer has a problem and blows a thread up, you need access to respond and defend the product.
  • If you are big time, venders will want to buy stuff on terms. Hope you have the money to make something and not get paid for 30 days.
  • No one likes the middle man taking his cut. However in real business, most manufactuers are not best at everything. You can't make the best part, market it the best, close the sale the best, and provide the best customer support. A large manufactuer would drown trying to service all of it's customers directly. Because of that, you have dealers who put your product in their shop, sell it, and handle the customer support. The also have to make money or why would they sell your stuff? In this business, most shops won't recommend something they don't sell..so you want dealers or you gain no volume. No different than the only reason Apple sells stuff to Best Buy is to be in a store everyone goes to, and in an ad everyone gets in their Sunday paper. An example of what happpens with no dealers is something MGW whoe makes hands fown the best shifter out there for this car..but you never really see it talked about here, because they won't let you be a dealer.
  • And now to support..something everyone wants the best of, but is not willing to pay one dime more for. If you have a problem installing your headers, would you rather call some kid selling knockoffs on ebay, or a racer with 20 years experiance who has installed the same part? It costs manufactuers and dealers to have experianced technical support on the other side of the phone.

All that, and I am certain I forgot a bunch of stuff. Bottom line is, there is a lot of cost in being a specialized manufactuer like Kooks. These costs are obviously not shared by a company that steals someone elses header and sends it to China to be made in runs of 50 between orders for Walmart Lawn furniture. Who cares if the person making your header has no clue what it is they are makring...and does not car? It's cheap right? Tech support, major dealers? Who needs them..sell on ebay..and if you have a problem..well it's cheap..what do you expect? Deal with it.

Last edited by MarylandSpeed; 01-12-2012 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 01-12-2012, 03:39 AM   #175
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Good write up, and an excellent indicator of just how many of those expenses OBX can eliminate by simply stealing a header design from someone else. And if you can circumvent those expenses by capitalizing on someone else's design, you can offer a cheaper product by default, regardless of quality or where it's made.

Can anyone honestly say that they don't see a problem with this?
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:43 AM   #176
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Good write up, and an excellent indicator of just how many of those expenses OBX can eliminate by simply stealing a header design from someone else. And if you can circumvent those expenses by capitalizing on someone else's design, you can offer a cheaper product by default, regardless of quality or where it's made.

Can anyone honestly say that they don't see a problem with this?
Really..in my mind..it's the way it is. I can try and educate people all day long. If you will only spend $600 on headers...then some moral talk won't convince you to spend $1100 or whatever. I am continually pushing to the vendors like Kooks, that the only way to fight this issue is compete. If someone is willing to pay $600 for a low quality chinese Kooks header..why not look at offering it yourself rather than letting someone else make money off of your design. Be honest about what it is, what customers should expect from it, and give it limited warranty and support. The knock offs sure lose their appeal when you can get something at the same price point from Kooks. This is the same reason you can buy a mexican Fender strat. The guitar market got overrun buy japanese knock offs 30 years ago, and that was the only way to compete.

That being said, for a company like Kooks, that made a huge investment in north american manufactuering capacity two years ago..that would also be a huge risk.
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:04 AM   #177
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Really..in my mind..it's the way it is. I can try and educate people all day long. If you will only spend $600 on headers...then some moral talk won't convince you to spend $1100 or whatever. I am continually pushing to the vendors like Kooks, that the only way to fight this issue is compete. If someone is willing to pay $600 for a low quality chinese Kooks header..why not look at offering it yourself rather than letting someone else make money off of your design. Be honest about what it is, what customers should expect from it, and give it limited warranty and support. The knock offs sure lose their appeal when you can get something at the same price point from Kooks. This is the same reason you can buy a mexican Fender strat. The guitar market got overrun buy japanese knock offs 30 years ago, and that was the only way to compete.

That being said, for a company like Kooks, that made a huge investment in north american manufactuering capacity two years ago..that would also be a huge risk.
I totally understand the budget viewpoint, having been there myself. I don't understand why people will give their $600 to OBX, who steals header designs and has a reputation for shoddy products and non-existent customer support, instead of to a budget header manufacturer like Pacesetter, Doug Thorley, etc., that are honest companies and don't have the negative reputation of OBX.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:29 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by ss/rs-matt View Post
Awesome did you see the headers Im gonna build?

I think im gonna start selling titanium/stainless/carbonfiber super headers. Ill make a commercial in time lapse photography. You'll see a car sitting on street with buildings all around. Then the time lapse will start, 100 years, 500 years, 1000 years and as all the buildings become engulfed in plant life so does the car. Humans are long gone and mother nature takes back the streets and buildings. Now the next ice age starts and whats left of the car becomes encased in 100' of ice for 10,000 years. Next the ice thaws and the tiny bit of car that is left is now under a ocean. When the water finally subsides all that's left on a grassy hill is a set of headers. My slogan will be "$3000 for headers but they'll last 300,000 years"

Ill build them in the US for $300, get some fancy brand name, mark them up %500, tell everyone that I needed a $300,000 machine and nasa engineers to design and build them. Then i'll go around on the forums and bad mouth anyone who's buys anything less. I'll beat them over the head with my propaganda till they agree to buy them just to shut me up.

How am i doing guys?
LOL! I'm with you man...
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:36 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by bluetorp View Post
I knew I was in the wrong business! I'm going to head out to one of the economic free zones in Dubai and use my savings to incorporate a business and buy factory space to crank out cheap duplicates of American performance products of which I hold no patents or intellectual rights! And no American company will have any hope of being able to prosecute me for it or keep my copies of their products out of the marketplace! And I'll even undercut MarylandSpeed's Chinese CAI because I'm going to hire Pakistanis and pay them with basmati rice!

And I'll make a ton of money because so many consumers are so willfully ignorant of where the products they buy are coming from and what the impact is on the marketplace and legitimate businesses at home and abroad. Who cares, as long as you're saving a buck?

welcome to walmart
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:57 AM   #180
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I hate these OBX header threads. I can't believe people will create a thread to support OBX headers. It flat out makes me sick. I grew up in an American town where more than 10,000 steel workers lost their jobs when the steel mills closed up in the early 80s. Because of this, I watched some hardworking guys lose their lively hood, houses, musclecars, etc., just because of the foreign competitive steel market. You've got to be kidding me, if you think you are doing the right thing by buying OBX headers. If you want to save a few bucks, go at it, because its your money and you can do whatever you want with your money. But I for one, would think much less of one of the greatest American icon cars, the Camaro, that had the aftermarket OBX headers installed on it.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:37 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed View Post
Really..in my mind..it's the way it is. I can try and educate people all day long. If you will only spend $600 on headers...then some moral talk won't convince you to spend $1100 or whatever. I am continually pushing to the vendors like Kooks, that the only way to fight this issue is compete. If someone is willing to pay $600 for a low quality chinese Kooks header..why not look at offering it yourself rather than letting someone else make money off of your design. Be honest about what it is, what customers should expect from it, and give it limited warranty and support. The knock offs sure lose their appeal when you can get something at the same price point from Kooks. This is the same reason you can buy a mexican Fender strat. The guitar market got overrun buy japanese knock offs 30 years ago, and that was the only way to compete.

That being said, for a company like Kooks, that made a huge investment in north american manufactuering capacity two years ago..that would also be a huge risk.
That's what I was saying, OBX and company's like it exist ONLY because there is a void in the market place for it. If Kooks and AHR filled that void OBX wouldn't stand a chance.
Guitars is a good analogy, Gibson builds American made les pauls that range in price from $700 - $10,000, something for everyone.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:42 AM   #182
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I hate these OBX header threads. I can't believe people will create a thread to support OBX headers. It flat out makes me sick. I grew up in an American town where more than 10,000 steel workers lost their jobs when the steel mills closed up in the early 80s. Because of this, I watched some hardworking guys lose their lively hood, houses, musclecars, etc., just because of the foreign competitive steel market. You've got to be kidding me, if you think you are doing the right thing by buying OBX headers. If you want to save a few bucks, go at it, because its your money and you can do whatever you want with your money. But I for one, would think much less of one of the greatest American icon cars, the Camaro, that had the aftermarket OBX headers installed on it.
Yet you bought a car that is %100 outsourced? You created 2 new jobs, the ceo of GM hired 2 new house keepers.
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