160 Degree Thermostat and Car Issues....

[2SSCAMARO]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

160 Stats in a street driven 2010 Camaro are fine. I have driven many street miles, logged may passes and been on the dyno more times with more LS Engines than I can count.

When the weather gets cold of course get the stock stat back in the car. I have never had the temps run lower than 178 with a 160 stat in my personal car. They will vary dependng on the combination.

Ring gaps are tight from the factory on the LS3. About .011 to .012 from what I have measured. The aluminum blocks expands like crazy the higher the temp goes. Every test on the engine dyno that I have done on LS crate engines the leakages have been less at the lower temps. As we turn the stat on the dyno down the measured blowby (crankase pressure) has dropped and the power has increased.

Maybe I missed something......


Robin

I dont't think you missed it.

The additional expansion of the aluminum block with the hotter coolant temps, especially on supercharged engines, creates additional blowby and oil vapors. If the engine is not running an oil can, an additional amount of oil is going into the intake and is yet an additional source of KR.

[Robin Lawrence]

Originally Posted by aj2ssrs

Is the higher crankcase pressure responsible for the amount of oil a catch can accumulates, or for that matter, the amount of oil that passes to the intake if you don't have a catch can?

Probably, most of the time yes. I do not have my tube connected to the intake inlet on my Camaro. Oil vapors can dilute the octane levels and cause detonation. The OEM's go to great lengths to contain, capture and burn fuel and oil vapors for emmisions.

On the dyno (Stuska Engine Dyno) we have a blowby meter. It is a floating ball that rises in a gauge and gives an indication of flow. To measure rings seal or blowby we seal the engine and connect one valve cover opening to the gauge. On a pull we record the blowby. On a tight engine we can see a number of 2 in a scale of 0 to 10. On a engine with poor sealing we might see a number of 6. Most aluminum block LS engines (new crate engines) are in the range of 3. As they break in that can improve. This is then case with most all aluminum blocks. On the non LS iron crate engines we have tested they have numbers from 0 to 1. Those engines are very tight. Now the LS engines will have more bow by as we raised the temperature of the engine. We have done this many times over and over again. Every time that we have reduced the engine temp it made more power and had less blow by.

We also use the blow by meter as a tuning tool. Normally we can see power fall off when we have reached the timing limit. In some cases you can still have power and have too much timing. when there is detonation present it will "unsettle" the top ring and you will see a spike in the blowby meter.

I am not a big fan of catch cans. On a race engine with a lot of boost and wet sump oiling they solve a lot of problems. They became really popular with the LS1, LS6 and the LS2 engines. As the OEM's were able to improve the ring seal on the later LS engines I didn't think they were really needed. There are a lot of vendors out there who will sell you something that you don't need.

I have an open breather on one valve cover and an open port on the other valve cover of my Supercharged LSA Crate engine. I see 14 pounds of boost and rev it past 6700 RPM. I don't have any oil mist, leak or spray out of any of the vents or breathers.

Certain synthetic oils are too slippery. They can cause a loss of ring seal. I have seen this on several of my engines. I will not ame names because then I will get a call from a sponsor or the oil company rep (it has happened).

If you have a blow by problem on an LS3 or L99 I would look at the tune or the oil that you are using.

I broke my son's 2006 GTO in on regular oil and it doesn't use a drop between oil changes. It now has the Mobil 1 as the dealer changes it for him.

Th OEM's need the temperature to fully burn the fuel and vapors. Also below 180 degrees the engine actually has increased wear. The components fit better and have less drag at 180 degrees. They don't make more power though LOL.

Everything is a compromise. Everyone who makes modificatins on these cars should understand those and be able to explain them to potential customers.

Robin

[topgun1]

Originally Posted by coolman

I thought I saw another thread about this. Search. I think it said you had to tune the ecu for that mod.

i had a thread about this a while back, but the 160 degree thermo didn't work because the tuner had tuned the fans to come on starting at 175 degrees. The thermostat was in fine working condition, but because the fans were tuned to come on at a higher temperature, the thermostat did not work. If you tuned your fans to come on starting at lower temperatures (below 160), then it would work. I took the 160 thermo out and had it retuned. The thermo won't work if your fans are tuned to come on above 160.

[aj2ssrs]

Robin, thanks for the reply. I recently installed a catch can. Needed something to do so figured wtf. I was amazed how much oil it caught after approximately 500 highway miles. LS3 by the way.

[Robin Lawrence]

Originally Posted by aj2ssrs

Robin, thanks for the reply. I recently installed a catch can. Needed something to do so figured wtf. I was amazed how much oil it caught after approximately 500 highway miles. LS3 by the way.

Wow, how many miles on the car? What oil are you using? Thermostat or tune?
Mods?

Thanks

Robin

[aj2ssrs]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

Wow, how many miles on the car? What oil are you using? Thermostat or tune?
Mods?

Thanks

Robin

21,000 miles. Mobil 1 fully synthetic 5-30. Stock t-stat. Tune. Long tubes, hi-flo cats, ADM race intake.

I installed the catch can after reading about other peoples experiences with them. It seems like most, if not all of them, were surprised at how much oil was trapped. I'm not really concerned about it. It probably isn't even that much, I was just surprised there was anything at all. In your first post you stated that a benefit of a 160 t-stat is that it lowers crankcase pressure so I figured I'd ask if the two are related.

[Slowhawk]

Robin, I definitely agrre with the brand oil and definitely the tune on oil consumption.Tested a bunch of different oils back in the day for oil consumption problems and decided on 1 oil that has worked great for us. So that is what we run.

For tunes I've seen it alot.People tune off the KR sensors and alot of times there is too much timing which can flutter(don't know the terms) the rings and cause alot of blow by.Too much timing can eassilyy upset the rings and cause alot of oil problems and I would guess do some damage long term to the rings.

My personal truck has 110k miles on it.Cammed for 85k miles and was turbo'd for 35k miles( now NA again). To this date I run no catch can and the truck usses no oil in 6-8k miles oil changes.

Good to hear about the engine temp affects you see too.

[NickJRE]

Originally Posted by Slowhawk

Robin, I definitely agrre with the brand oil and definitely the tune on oil consumption.Tested a bunch of different oils back in the day for oil consumption problems and decided on 1 oil that has worked great for us. So that is what we run.

For tunes I've seen it alot.People tune off the KR sensors and alot of times there is too much timing which can flutter(don't know the terms) the rings and cause alot of blow by.Too much timing can eassilyy upset the rings and cause alot of oil problems and I would guess do some damage long term to the rings.

My personal truck has 110k miles on it.Cammed for 85k miles and was turbo'd for 35k miles( now NA again). To this date I run no catch can and the truck usses no oil in 6-8k miles oil changes.

Good to hear about the engine temp affects you see too.

Now you've got me intrigued, which oil caused consumption problems? Which didn't. Can't post something like that and leave us hanging

[2010 SS RS]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

Probably, most of the time yes. I do not have my tube connected to the intake inlet on my Camaro. Oil vapors can dilute the octane levels and cause detonation. The OEM's go to great lengths to contain, capture and burn fuel and oil vapors for emmisions.

On the dyno (Stuska Engine Dyno) we have a blowby meter. It is a floating ball that rises in a gauge and gives an indication of flow. To measure rings seal or blowby we seal the engine and connect one valve cover opening to the gauge. On a pull we record the blowby. On a tight engine we can see a number of 2 in a scale of 0 to 10. On a engine with poor sealing we might see a number of 6. Most aluminum block LS engines (new crate engines) are in the range of 3. As they break in that can improve. This is then case with most all aluminum blocks. On the non LS iron crate engines we have tested they have numbers from 0 to 1. Those engines are very tight. Now the LS engines will have more bow by as we raised the temperature of the engine. We have done this many times over and over again. Every time that we have reduced the engine temp it made more power and had less blow by.

We also use the blow by meter as a tuning tool. Normally we can see power fall off when we have reached the timing limit. In some cases you can still have power and have too much timing. when there is detonation present it will "unsettle" the top ring and you will see a spike in the blowby meter.

I am not a big fan of catch cans. On a race engine with a lot of boost and wet sump oiling they solve a lot of problems. They became really popular with the LS1, LS6 and the LS2 engines. As the OEM's were able to improve the ring seal on the later LS engines I didn't think they were really needed. There are a lot of vendors out there who will sell you something that you don't need.

I have an open breather on one valve cover and an open port on the other valve cover of my Supercharged LSA Crate engine. I see 14 pounds of boost and rev it past 6700 RPM. I don't have any oil mist, leak or spray out of any of the vents or breathers.

Certain synthetic oils are too slippery. They can cause a loss of ring seal. I have seen this on several of my engines. I will not ame names because then I will get a call from a sponsor or the oil company rep (it has happened).

If you have a blow by problem on an LS3 or L99 I would look at the tune or the oil that you are using.

I broke my son's 2006 GTO in on regular oil and it doesn't use a drop between oil changes. It now has the Mobil 1 as the dealer changes it for him.

Th OEM's need the temperature to fully burn the fuel and vapors. Also below 180 degrees the engine actually has increased wear. The components fit better and have less drag at 180 degrees. They don't make more power though LOL.

Everything is a compromise. Everyone who makes modificatins on these cars should understand those and be able to explain them to potential customers.

Robin

Once again Robin, an excellent read. Totally agree with your break in with regular oil. I think it does hold particulates better to clean the build contaminates better anyway. Other important factor is to Bore to the piston and rings specific rather than Bore to spec size and then make em fit. I was one that felt the need for a catch can myself. More influenced by the huge amounts some were catching if they were FI. However, after checking mine this weekend after 1700 miles post build I was amazed that it was empty with only a few drops. Guess I could have saved the $. What is your take on E85 and what do you feel max timing should be for a safe tune?

[2SSCAMARO]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

Probably, most of the time yes. I do not have my tube connected to the intake inlet on my Camaro. Oil vapors can dilute the octane levels and cause detonation. The OEM's go to great lengths to contain, capture and burn fuel and oil vapors for emmisions.

On the dyno (Stuska Engine Dyno) we have a blowby meter. It is a floating ball that rises in a gauge and gives an indication of flow. To measure rings seal or blowby we seal the engine and connect one valve cover opening to the gauge. On a pull we record the blowby. On a tight engine we can see a number of 2 in a scale of 0 to 10. On a engine with poor sealing we might see a number of 6. Most aluminum block LS engines (new crate engines) are in the range of 3. As they break in that can improve. This is then case with most all aluminum blocks. On the non LS iron crate engines we have tested they have numbers from 0 to 1. Those engines are very tight. Now the LS engines will have more bow by as we raised the temperature of the engine. We have done this many times over and over again. Every time that we have reduced the engine temp it made more power and had less blow by.

We also use the blow by meter as a tuning tool. Normally we can see power fall off when we have reached the timing limit. In some cases you can still have power and have too much timing. when there is detonation present it will "unsettle" the top ring and you will see a spike in the blowby meter.

I am not a big fan of catch cans. On a race engine with a lot of boost and wet sump oiling they solve a lot of problems. They became really popular with the LS1, LS6 and the LS2 engines. As the OEM's were able to improve the ring seal on the later LS engines I didn't think they were really needed. There are a lot of vendors out there who will sell you something that you don't need.

I have an open breather on one valve cover and an open port on the other valve cover of my Supercharged LSA Crate engine. I see 14 pounds of boost and rev it past 6700 RPM. I don't have any oil mist, leak or spray out of any of the vents or breathers.

Certain synthetic oils are too slippery. They can cause a loss of ring seal. I have seen this on several of my engines. I will not ame names because then I will get a call from a sponsor or the oil company rep (it has happened).

If you have a blow by problem on an LS3 or L99 I would look at the tune or the oil that you are using.

I broke my son's 2006 GTO in on regular oil and it doesn't use a drop between oil changes. It now has the Mobil 1 as the dealer changes it for him.

Th OEM's need the temperature to fully burn the fuel and vapors. Also below 180 degrees the engine actually has increased wear. The components fit better and have less drag at 180 degrees. They don't make more power though LOL.

Everything is a compromise. Everyone who makes modificatins on these cars should understand those and be able to explain them to potential customers.

Robin

I think you would agree that either you vent to atmosphere or you utilize the oil can if you want to minimize the effects of detonation caused by oil vapors/mists entering the intake. Guys who do neither and run 220* water temps and use 91 octane gas surely have to be experiencing detonation, probably without even knowing it.

[Slowhawk]

Originally Posted by NickJRE

Now you've got me intrigued, which oil caused consumption problems? Which didn't. Can't post something like that and leave us hanging

It starts a war. Everybody just use what you like.

[aj2ssrs]

Originally Posted by Slowhawk

It starts a war. Everybody just use what you like.

Smart answer.

[Robin Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Slowhawk

Robin, I definitely agrre with the brand oil and definitely the tune on oil consumption.Tested a bunch of different oils back in the day for oil consumption problems and decided on 1 oil that has worked great for us. So that is what we run.

For tunes I've seen it alot.People tune off the KR sensors and alot of times there is too much timing which can flutter(don't know the terms) the rings and cause alot of blow by.Too much timing can eassilyy upset the rings and cause alot of oil problems and I would guess do some damage long term to the rings.

My personal truck has 110k miles on it.Cammed for 85k miles and was turbo'd for 35k miles( now NA again). To this date I run no catch can and the truck usses no oil in 6-8k miles oil changes.

Good to hear about the engine temp affects you see too.

I think that "flutter" is the best word to describe what happens to the top ring during detonation.
Also I want to be clear that installing a colder thermostat will not solve your blowby issues. I wanted to share what we have seen on the dyno after many many pulls with the LS engines.

As far as the oil is concerned I am not going to go there or start a war. My phone starts ringing and it goes downhill from there. If you have an engine with ring seal issues you may want to try a heavier oil. Also as I said earlier some trick oils can be too slippery.

When I raced in a class called Factory Stock several years ago I tried a name brand race synthetic. The car actually picked up. I was able to see a difference. As I ran that oil I noticed that my leak down numbers had increased. I switched to another name brand synthetic and after a few races my leak down numbers improved. Niether brand is what is recommended in a factory LS engine.

OEM's must certify with the oil intended in their engines. Otherwise the milage numbers can change. For 90% of the consumers a light low drag synthetic is the best choice. If you are a performance minded consumer who tends to drive in a spirited manner than you may want to look at a thicker oil. At the same time you may want to be sure the oil is warm before you blast out of the driveway.

I have switched from the high $$$ synthetics to a Valvoline VR1 in my LSX 440 Cubic Inch Nitrous engine. It's cheaper and holds up very well. It is a racing oil and has a lot of zinc.

For a street car I would not allow the tuner to turn off the knock sensors. They will keep some people from killling their pistons and rings should they get some bad gas. Also the tuners should be more worried about a safe tune than hail mary dyno graphs.

Just a few of my opinions, feel free to shoot holes in them if you like LOL.

Robin

[1 bad azz ls3]

let this thread die...