ZR1 3 bar map sensor questions?

[bumblebeecamaro]

Jesus people..... All this debate on whether you need a $50 sensor or not is crazy. After all, what is the big deal with spending another $50 after the fact you've already spent over $6K???

I'm actually surprised that Ted has already gone way over and beyond by explaining his reason(s) more than once in this thread.

Gee, lets see here. On one hand, you've got the brains behind JRE explaining why you need a ZR1 sensor. On the ther hand, there's multiple Internet Joe Shomoes that no one's ever heard of questioning Ted's logic.

Hmmmm? What's the obvious choice here???? lol

[dekan513]

yep, i agree

[Adadda]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

All about keeping the cost of the kits down adding a 50.00 Sensor to the package raises the price and competition is stiff so they opted out of this.

Every Supercharged Car should have a Map Sensor that can Report Actual Maniflold Pressure to the computer so the computer can do it's calculations accurately to fire the injectors, calculate engine load, and shift the transmission properly.

Your factory map sensor stops reading at just over 1 bar or about 2.9 PSI boost.

A 3 bar map reads up to 30 PSI, do you need that much?, No but as long as the computer can read boost accurately that is what Matters.

The ZR-1 Map is Plug and Play with appropriate tuning on this model.

Ted.

If it is needed to properly tune the vehicle as you have stated above , how do the manufactures like vortech,Maggie,and so on calibrate there tunes that come with the kits without the 3bar map sensor? Most kits come out of the box running at least 6psi

[ZL600 FK]

Is there a part number for the ZR-1 map sensor or do I just ask for a ZR-1 map sensor? I know this maybe a dumb question, but where does it go?

[bumblebeecamaro]

Originally Posted by ZL600 FK

Is there a part number for the ZR-1 map sensor or do I just ask for a ZR-1 map sensor? I know this maybe a dumb question, but where does it go?

the GM part # is 12592525 and it goes where the normal MAP sensor goes which is on the passenger-ish side of the intake.

[2SSCAMARO]

Originally Posted by ayousef

If you want to get more technical, a stock MAP sensor doesnt read 2.9PSI, it reads 120KPA, boost pressure can only be determined after you measure barometric pressure.

On a bad day it could be reading 3+ PSI, and on a good day it could be reading 2psi.

Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO

Seeing that being technical is in fashion, a MAP sensor doesn't "read" anything. It measures absolute pressure surrounding the probe. The absolute pressure data gathered by the sensor can be calculated and displayed digitally either way....PSI or Kpa.

What is a "bad" day and a "good" day? Performance wise as it relates to manifold pressure and boost for a supercharged internal combustion engine, a "bad" day would be one of lower than standard atmospheric pressure such as a high density altitude (lower psi not higher).

Originally Posted by ayousef

Thanks for letting me know that Kpa and PSI are both measurement units of pressure.

Now since you're trying so hard to be a douche, I thought you might want to know that sensor does not calculate anything. A Map sensor is a very simple 0-5volt sensor. An xxx amount of pressure would trigger a voltage reading that scales from 0 volts all the way to 5 volts with at least three + decimal points of accuracy as a signal from the sensor. The ECU uses the inputed MAP linear slope function to translate that registered voltage into a usable pressure reading.

Now let me school you since you're attempting to argue that what I just said was incorrect. A good day powerwise would be one of very dense air or a relatively high atmospheric pressure and vice versa. A normal barometric pressure reading at sea level would fluctuate between 99kpa and 105kpa, so lets look at those two examples.

99kpa would be the "bad" day, and 105kpa the "good" day.

The MAP sensor reading is a constant that does not fluctuate with fluctuating weather. In this case 120Kpa.

The following scenario takes place on a 10psi boosted LS3 Camaro SS with the stock MAP sensor.

on the bad day, the MAP would be able to register a maximum boost pressure reading of 120- 99 = 21kpa

on the good day, the MAP would register a max boost reading of 120- 105 = 15kpa.

do the math im not spending anymore time on this subject. If you want to have the sensor by all means get it

Take a deep breath and this time re-read what you said in bold print. It is in fact an incorrect statement. Then re-read what I said in bold print. That is a correct statement. The data gathered by the sensor can be calulated either way and I did not say or imply that it was the function of the sensor to calculate the data. Even non master schoolers such as myself am aware that job belongs to the PCM or ECM. Also, I don't need to get one, my 3bar map went on with my maggie more than 2 1/2 years ago.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Adadda

If it is needed to properly tune the vehicle as you have stated above , how do the manufactures like vortech,Maggie,and so on calibrate there tunes that come with the kits without the 3bar map sensor? Most kits come out of the box running at least 6psi

They burn it in to the Maf curve and PE table, it works but it's not right.

50.00 can make or break a sale just read the threads on this or any other site on the internet.

Ted.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by ayousef

You're doing what professionals call ASSUMING, but I never knew that PE tables could rap, I guess you live and learn.

In responce to your assumption, my testing is based on putting the truck on a dyno and logging AFR with the wideband hooked up to the HPTuners software.

My PE table is set to target commanded AFR, and actual AFR is almost spot on, tuned the maf curve using AFR error.

I will post graphs of my MAF curve and my PE curve if you want but just to let you know youll be in for a dissapointment if you expected my PE table to be raped.

In the other post you simply rephrased what I said and that is your only argument, how about you show us some HARD proof of a vehicle on the dyno with a stock map sensor and a 3bar map sensor and log AFR from both runs and post back, and if you post back I will do the same and show you similar logs based on my personal experience.

Second of all if this was your only argument you should have said that only vehicle with returnless style fuel systems need the 3bar MAP sensor because this whole injector pressure delta thing only applies to returnless fuel systems and not jump ship and say that EVERY forced induction vehicle needs a 3bar MAP sensor.

This is Still Camaro5 last time I checked.

Oh I am not assuming anything, if you don't have a map sensor that can read manifold pressure that goes outside of the max value of the stock map sensor you can't properly tune this platform, without fudging something else somewhere else in the tune.

And/Or on any other Platform you can't Properly tune the VE or Virtual VE tables without the proper Map Sensor.

If you Dont' know this then there is No Point for any further discussion.

I am here to Educate not ARGUE.

Ted.

[Motion427]

I run a Supercharged Avalanche as my daily driver.I tuned it with the stock map and maf sensor.It was running great.Until I started to haul my trailer.With the trailer I was maxing the map around 2800rpm with only 2-3 pounds of boost because of the extra load with the trailer.Tried to adjust the maf because it was leaning out big time.I had a hard time adjusting it.Either it was too lean or too rich.But when I did not have the trailer,it was OK,even at WOT.I installed a 2 bar map and tuned it.My stock map maxed out at 105kpa,a 2 bar map max out at 210kpa. When I'm hauling my trailer,I'm in the area of 105-115Kpa under load,and 150kpa at Wot.So, the ECM was pretty guessing the fuel needed between 105+ kpa with a little help with the MAF.But it wasn't as reliable without the right MAP for the application.For my application,I'm also close to max the maf aswell.So you see why I need the right map to safely tune the truck.
The new Camaro has a faster ECM than my truck,and the maf range is higher than my truck.So you can push it with more HP,but theirs still a line where a 2bar or a 3bar is needed to tune it correctly at all the RPM and load range,not only at wot.
I'm typing this with my phone,so my words might not be perfect,and I'm from Canada.Lol.......

[ayousef]

Originally Posted by Motion427

I run a Supercharged Avalanche as my daily driver.I tuned it with the stock map and maf sensor.It was running great.Until I started to haul my trailer.With the trailer I was maxing the map around 2800rpm with only 2-3 pounds of boost because of the extra load with the trailer.Tried to adjust the maf because it was leaning out big time.I had a hard time adjusting it.Either it was too lean or too rich.But when I did not have the trailer,it was OK,even at WOT.I installed a 2 bar map and tuned it.My stock map maxed out at 105kpa,a 2 bar map max out at 210kpa. When I'm hauling my trailer,I'm in the area of 105-115Kpa under load,and 150kpa at Wot.So, the ECM was pretty guessing the fuel needed between 105+ kpa with a little help with the MAF.But it wasn't as reliable without the right MAP for the application.For my application,I'm also close to max the maf aswell.So you see why I need the right map to safely tune the truck.
The new Camaro has a faster ECM than my truck,and the maf range is higher than my truck.So you can push it with more HP,but theirs still a line where a 2bar or a 3bar is needed to tune it correctly at all the RPM and load range,not only at wot.
I'm typing this with my phone,so my words might not be perfect,and I'm from Canada.Lol.......

Your avalanche is a completely different vehicle and depending on year those ECUs probably have a true VE table unlike the virtual VE in the newer pcms (which usually get disabled in performance applications)

I will get back to the rest in a short while

[Motion427]

Strange, I have 2 files setup for my Camaro 2010. 1 has the VE table and the other is the factory one.Most tuners can update the stock operation system of the V8 Camaro to one that has the VE table and other tables that can tune a FI Camaro with ease.

I was just using my Avalanche as an example for upgrading a map sensor can make a difference.

[ZL600 FK]

Originally Posted by bumblebeecamaro

the GM part # is 12592525 and it goes where the normal MAP sensor goes which is on the passenger-ish side of the intake.

Thanks for the information. I plan to get 65 lb injectors and I have a ZL-1 fuel pump. Is there anything else I should consider. I am at RW 535 hp and my tuner indicated my injectors were at 90 % at the top end and I was running out of fuel in simple terms.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by ZL600 FK

Thanks for the information. I plan to get 65 lb injectors and I have a ZL-1 fuel pump. Is there anything else I should consider. I am at RW 535 hp and my tuner indicated my injectors were at 90 % at the top end and I was running out of fuel in simple terms.

You may want to do more research before you buy.

Ted.

[simon.w]

Originally Posted by 2ssx2

This is about a mystical as having a stupid catch can.

Now THAT is a totally niave comment. Why don't I send you the cup of black stinking oily gunk that my RX Monster catches every month and you can tip that into your throttle body to compliment what your engine is already spewing in there.

Oh ... And for what it's worth, don't you think GM would have used the same MAP on their FI cars as their NA to save money if a 3 bar provided no advantage?

I don't think any of the FI manufacturers have the R&D budget that GM do ... That's probably the only reason they don't include it.

I for one appreciate the knowledge that the well learned tuners like Ted share on the forum. I have personally learned a massive amount and benefited a great deal from it.