New CAFE standards: end of Camaro V8s?

[Camaroshark]

Originally Posted by squat

(snip)
P.S. CAFE is determined by the NHTSA, not the EPA.

And which one of those legislative branches of the government do we vote for? (oops)

I'll do my best to keep this non-political.

One need not look too much further than the automotive industry to see where bureaucratic regulation is impacting the cost of vehicles to the consumer. On average, it's expected that these cafe standards will add $2,000 to the price of every new car in America.

http://blog.truecar.com/2011/08/23/w...or-car-buyers/

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this will hurt middle and low income America far more than high income earners. To say that the increased cost will be offset by lower cost of ownership is optimistic thinking at best, propaganda nonsense at worst.

The research and development costs leading up to the cost increases for additional equipment need to be factored in between now and implementation of the cafe standard so one could see the cost of new vehicles increase $1,000-2,000 per year possibly on R&D costs alone.

Then we don't even begin to get into the government's artificially driving demand for a vehicle that no one wants to buy. See article below. That's costing the taxpayer billions in non-direct expenses, leading to higher taxation and deficits rather than direct cost at the sticker.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...88904J20120910

And to top it off, energy policies that artificially drive up the costs of our fossil fuels with environmental regulation policies forcing fuel manufacturers to provide unique blends based on region of the country.

Next, factor in the costs of diverting corn that would normally go towards food into creating fuel for our vehicles. That drives up the cost of food at the grocery store, in an economic environment that has seen the purchasing power of the dollar drop by 30% at least in the last 5 years while increasing the price of certain meats and poultry stock by at least 22%.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/20/opinio...nol/index.html

Most of us are seeing many other foods at the store either up 10-13% in price or the package size decreased by the same amount. (If you do your family's grocery shopping, you see it).

So it's a bit disingenous to simply state a direct cost at the sticker for governmental meddling and "pushing" demand for a particular product or class of products rather than allowing normal market forces to dictate what products consumers will wish to buy and allowing markets to set the prices for those products.

Also, indirectly affecting fuel prices by restricting supply (http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/03/22...dministration/) (Permits down 36% on public lands - though up on private lands) or artificially making it more expensive via taxation (regional blends) or artificially raising the prices of "Non-politician approved" vehicles (gas guzzler tax) is another problem facing all of us.

Then with the squeeze in other forms of cost increases, the middle class and poor are definitely suffering under all of these increased regulatory burdens and impacts of political decision making.

Well, and then there's the skyrocketing cost of used cars lately (anyone notice that?). Thank the cash for clunkers program that mandated destruction of cars traded in under the program, resulting in a reduced inventory of decent used cars for Americans to purchase and a loss in a tremendous amounts of used vehicle parts that could be salvaged.

There's some facts for you.

But hey, I was just an accounting and finance major and worked in banking and finance for the last 24 years. What do I know?

[BowtieBelle]

Originally Posted by squat

Absolutely, plus I think a 4.0L with DI and a turbo would be well beyond 440 HP. Jay Leno's Camaro is a 2010 V6 with a turbo that puts out over 500 HP (525 if I remember correctly).

Thing is, that's a V6, and the purists will pitch a fit if V6's replace V8's in muscle cars...

[squat]

Originally Posted by Camaroshark

But hey, I was just an accounting and finance major and worked in banking and finance for the last 24 years. What do I know?

You effectively nullify your post with the last two sentences, we don't need your condescension. However...

You made some very good points, and I agree with a lot of them. Cash for clunkers was a dumb idea. Using corn for ethanol is also a terrible idea, switchgrass would be much more viable if we had the facilities to process it.

Food costs more per ounce because gas prices are up and food is trucked everywhere. CAFE would help this issue, no?

Like I've said earlier, being dependent upon foreign entities for our energy needs puts us at risk. CAFE helps to minimize that risk.

As an aside, if you haven't already guessed I also like other agencies like the EPA, SEC, etc. I'll absolutely agree with anyone that says too much regulation is a bad thing, but most of these people then go on to say the only alternative is no regulation.

It's been proven time and time again that if left to their own devices companies will run amok however they can to make a quick buck, be that at the expense of the environment, the economy, etc. (you've been in banking for 24 years so I'll assume you remember the several banking bailouts that have happened over the last 25 years).

Too much regulation is bad, but so is no regulation. Reasonable regulation is where I stand.

[squat]

Originally Posted by BowtieBelle

Thing is, that's a V6, and the purists will pitch a fit if V6's replace V8's in muscle cars...

I agree, I was just pointing out that a 3.6L V6 engine with DI and a turbo puts out much more than 440 HP. A 4.0L V8 with D.I. and a turbo would probably put out a good chunk more than Leno's Camaro.

[BowtieBelle]

Originally Posted by squat

I agree, I was just pointing out that a 3.6L V6 engine with DI and a turbo puts out much more than 440 HP. A 4.0L V8 with D.I. and a turbo would probably put out a good chunk more than Leno's Camaro.

[Texas_venom]

Originally Posted by squat

You effectively nullify your post with the last two sentences, we don't need your condescension. However...

You made some very good points, and I agree with a lot of them. Cash for clunkers was a dumb idea. Using corn for ethanol is also a terrible idea, switchgrass would be much more viable if we had the facilities to process it.

Food costs more per ounce because gas prices are up and food is trucked everywhere. CAFE would help this issue, no?

Like I've said earlier, being dependent upon foreign entities for our energy needs puts us at risk. CAFE helps to minimize that risk.

As an aside, if you haven't already guessed I also like other agencies like the EPA, SEC, etc. I'll absolutely agree with anyone that says too much regulation is a bad thing, but most of these people then go on to say the only alternative is no regulation.

It's been proven time and time again that if left to their own devices companies will run amok however they can to make a quick buck, be that at the expense of the environment, the economy, etc. (you've been in banking for 24 years so I'll assume you remember the several banking bailouts that have happened over the last 25 years).

Too much regulation is bad, but so is no regulation. Reasonable regulation is where I stand.

CAFE standards do absolutely nothing to minimze our dependency on foreign oil. We will alwys have to rely on foreing production as long as we keep shutting down drilling in this country. Petroleum byproducts are used in practically everything you use and consume every day... so the demand is not going anywhere. If we get these tree hugging liberals out of the government and allow domestic production to increase we will be able to do it without impacting the enironment, create millions of jobs here, and improve our economy. Our EPA is completely out of control in this country... do soem research and see what they are up to now. Trying to control dust kicked up from farming??? I mean really WTF? Where dose it end? Time to change direction or our country will go bankrupt.

By the way this has to be political becuae the politicians are the ones controlling all of this.

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by squat

Absolutely, plus I think a 4.0L with DI and a turbo would be well beyond 440 HP. Jay Leno's Camaro is a 2010 V6 with a turbo that puts out over 500 HP (525 if I remember correctly).

Think of GM's 2.0 Ecotech (LNF) engine with the Stage 1 kit. It puts out 290Hp and 340Tq, now double that to a V8 4.0 the possibilities are there.

[BowtieBelle]

Originally Posted by Texas_venom

CAFE standards do absolutely nothing to minimze our dependency on foreign oil.

[squat]

Originally Posted by Texas_venom

CAFE standards do absolutely nothing to minimze our dependency on foreign oil.

In 2007 President Bush happily signed the Energy Independence and Security act, part of which raised CAFE standards to 35 MPG by 2020. The CAFE increase is only part of the bill designed to promote energy security of our country.

[kmcd]

Originally Posted by crateish

Earth > V8

Burning less fossil fuel isn't going to save the planet.

The planet will be just fine either way.

[bigd1276]

"GM losing as much as $49,000 per Volt sold"

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...volt-sold?lite

[Kevlo79]

Wow! Camaroshark, very impressive! I agree with you on the government's agenda based meddling, we are definitely footing the bill for it in more ways than one, and many that have nothing to do with fuels or the environment! After reading through your information it certainly does seem that the government has its hands in the cookie jar. On the other hand, I do think the CAFÉ standards are important.

At the rate at which technology is developing it does not seem unachievable, maybe a bit tough to reach in 12 years, but after all, nothing happens without a deadline. If there were no regulation (and no governmental fluff in pricing) we'd likely pay much less at the pump, and we'd also burn it faster.

There is always cost for our actions. Think about it, we charge tolls or taxes (vehicle registration, fuel taxes, toll roads) for those using our transportation infrastructure resources. We all pay a bill each month for the sewage we dump down the drain so that it can be disposed of and the water made reusable. We don’t pay, and don’t maintain, the air that we discharge into, yet still have to breathe.

Don’t get me wrong, I'm not an environmentalist, but I think we can at least agree that the products of incomplete combustion dumping out our tail pipes are probably not so great to have in the air we breathe. Also, fossil fuels are not going to last forever. Sometime in the relatively near future will likely see serious shortage. We are making great technological gains, but things like mass transit and cargo shipment (train, boat, truck, air) will depend on these fuels long into the future. If nothing else, CAFÉ at least carries our limited supplies farther down the road. We have to think about the future today.

Personally, I love my large displacement V8. The sound, the power, the bragging rights! However, as technology increases, partially prompted by these impending regulations, I would not have a problem with a smaller engine that will very likely exceed the power of our current V8s!

I think it sounds painful, but a push in the right direction might be just what we need! If we could just get the hidden agendas out of the way it would probably be much more palatable!

[Kevlo79]

Originally Posted by kmcd

Burning less fossil fuel isn't going to save the planet.

The planet will be just fine either way.

Right.........

Ever been somewhere that has no regulation? Whatever it does to the planet aside, I can tell you it's not doing any favors for the respiratory system, or the eyes!