Good news! (sort of)...

[Mr. Wyndham]

One less engine to try and speculate from

GM to cut production of 3.8-liter V-6 engine

by Todd Seibt | The Flint Journal
Saturday November 10, 2007, 9:11 AM

FLINT - General Motors plans to cut production of its long-running 3.8-liter V-6 engine at Flint Powertrain North in December, as it prepares to quit building the engine altogether in 2008.
In a letter to workers Friday, plant managers said engine production will be cut from about 1,016 engines per day to about 500 starting in December.

Exact details remain to be worked out, said Jeff Ward, a Flint North spokesman.

Floyd Straley, shop chairman of UAW Local 599 at the complex, said the plan has changed multiple times in the past few days - and might change again before Dec. 3, the target date.

"Everything they write these days has 'STC' on it - 'subject to change,'" Straley said.

Flint North, the former Buick City site on the city's north side, is anchored by the V-6 engine plant, with various component plants clustered at the site.

Inside GM, a production reduction is known as a de-rate. The de-rate plan seems to indicate production will continue into the second half of 2008, depending on demand.

Straley said plans are to de-rate the entire site, except for some piston production work for other sites. Of about 1,200 active hourly workers at Flint North, 456 work in the V-6 plant, Ward said.

The de-rate would likely mean layoffs or jobs bank assignments for most workers, Straley said.

Flint North was a surprise detail in the recently negotiated national contract between the UAW and GM. The thick "white book" that details contract changes included a section promising North three new engine modules, to be built at a greenfield site. That is expected in 2011.

Straley noted that even the most basic production facility, likely to start construction in 2009, would take up to 24 months to complete and get rolling.

That would leave North without a product for an extended period of time.

The 3.8-liter engine has been on the chopping block since 2005, when it was first announced the engine would go out of production. GM Powertrain officials have said the engine would be phased out sometime in 2008, depending on market demand.

GM is now relying on a more modern 3.6-liter engine design built at North's sister plant, Flint South.

Ironically, the 3.8-liter engine, or 3800, is one of GM's most frugal yet powerful powerplants. It originally was built in 1962, sold to another company, then reacquired during the OPEC oil embargo in the 1970s to provide GM buyers with a less-thirsty alternative to big V-8s.

Since then, it has been upgraded and reworked multiple times, achieving higher horsepower ratings and even better miles-per-gallon ratings.

sucks about the jobs loss, and all...but still, these things happen, the 3.8 is old...

[DGthe3]

when i was reading that I had to do a double take, 1016 engines per day? working 5 days a week with lots of down time its still over a quarter million/year. But since GM makes about 10 million engines a year, it isn't all that huge of a cut, under 3% of their worldwide production.

speaking of the 3800's, I really think that my next car will feature that engine. I'm strongly considering a grand prix GTP, from around the year 2000. and those engines are supposed to be very reliable from what I've read.

[CamaroSpike23]

the 3.8 is old, but if I had to have a v-6 id take that one. there are enough performance parts out there to make it as fast if not more than a v-8.

[MTron]

I am a proud owner of the Grand prix with the 3800, and yea, these engines are great, super solid performers, and yea, there are tons and tons of aftermarket parts. Im kinda sad to see it go, but yea, it is an old engine, and is a bit behind the performance curve of modern engines.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

speaking of the 3800's, I really think that my next car will feature that engine. I'm strongly considering a grand prix GTP, from around the year 2000. and those engines are supposed to be very reliable from what I've read.

if ur seriously considering a GP GTP, check out clubgp.com, you can find a lot of great info about these cars

[stovt001]

The old GM V6s are indeed old and low tech, but the new 3.6L isn't exactly the greatest thing to happen to V6s either. Sadly, it seems like V6s are GM's weak link at the moment. I wonder if we'll see any new V6s besides the 3.6 replace some of the ones being killed off now.

[AirGoya]

I am also a proud owner of a 3800 in my impala. It is a great engine that has never given me any problems and has shown really good gas mileage on the highway, 33.5 mpg.

From what i have heard the 3.6 is a great engine. What does everyone else think on that V6? In all the malibu reviews they love it.

[MTron]

i dunno, the v6 going into the G8 with 250+ hp is nothing to shake ur head at. I dont see why a v6 like this would be GM's weak link

LLT

The 3.6 L (3564 cc) LLT is a direct injected version of the LY7. It was first unveiled in May 2006, and was claimed to have 15% greater power, 8% greater torque, and 3% better fuel economy than it's port-injected counterpart. It has a compression ratio of 11.4:1, and has been certified by the SAE to produce 302 hp (225 kW) at 6300 rpm and 272 ft·lbf (369 N·m) of torque at 5200 rpm on regular unleaded gasoline. This engine will debut on the 2008 Cadillac STS and CTS

and this new v6 with DI is defiantly not a weak link imho

[acscamarochick06]

I have a 3.8 L V6 in my Camaro and I have had no problems with it. Sure, I wish I got better gas mileage (who doesn't?). But the engine has been great for 72,000 miles *knock on wood* and hopefully will continue to be for a while longer!

[Gunner KS1]

The 3800 S2 in my Regal has just under 90K on it and still runs like it was bullet proof. I am getting the Top V8 in my Camaro though, just wish I knew which engine it is going to be already.

EDIT: as for the window lift motors, well that is another story. They all went out around the same time except for one.

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by MTron

i dunno, the v6 going into the G8 with 250+ hp is nothing to shake ur head at. I dont see why a v6 like this would be GM's weak link



and this new v6 with DI is defiantly not a weak link imho

Well so many 3.5 or 3.6 engines from the competition are getting 270+hp. Now I know that they are peaky and that torque and power curves are also important, but a Camry can still outrun the new Malibu and that's just kinda sad. 250 hp is good compared to the old GM V6s and the V6s from Ford and Chrysler, but it just isn't up there with the mainstream performance V6s from Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. Even worse, the 3.6's fuel economy is pretty poor comparatively, so it loses both the horsepower and the efficiency wars.

The 305 hp DI is great though. Now that is class leading power with better efficiency.

[AirGoya]

Originally Posted by stovt001

The 305 hp DI is great though. Now that is class leading power with better efficiency.

Yea i was thinking, i know ofcourse its more expensive but why cant GM direct inject a lot of its engines. HP and efficiency!
I was also thinking, what if the base v6 in the camaro was that 300 hp DI V6. My reasoning is always, Mr. Lutz said they believe they are making the best car in its class ever.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by AirGoya

Yea i was thinking, i know ofcourse its more expensive but why cant GM direct inject a lot of its engines. HP and efficiency!
I was also thinking, what if the base v6 in the camaro was that 300 hp DI V6. My reasoning is always, Mr. Lutz said they believe they are making the best car in its class ever.

The main deal with that, is they need to design an engine with DI in mind. It's not as easy as poking some fuel injectors into the cyllinder.

Then you've got to EPA it, cause it's a new engine, test it, etc...the list goes on. Couple that to the massive amount of different engines GM has, and you can see the issue. But the new generation small-blocks will all supposed to be Direct Injected. Which is exciting news

As for the DI being put into the Camaro...I think this has been discussed before: probably not as the base engine. But if it's a real hit in the fat caddy...I can see it being used as a High-feature V6. But, who knows...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The main deal with that, is they need to design an engine with DI in mind. It's not as easy as poking some fuel injectors into the cyllinder.

Then you've got to EPA it, cause it's a new engine, test it, etc...the list goes on. Couple that to the massive amount of different engines GM has, and you can see the issue. But the new generation small-blocks will all supposed to be Direct Injected. Which is exciting news

As for the DI being put into the Camaro...I think this has been discussed before: probably not as the base engine. But if it's a real hit in the fat caddy...I can see it being used as a High-feature V6. But, who knows...

Thats part of the reason why GM cars end up with good value. They have high end lines that cover the cost of development and then pass down some of the things that work well into the lower levels. Other companies just can't do that to the same degree