The More I know the less I understand

[68RSZ]

I am trying to get some upgrading done before I do my first road course track day on May 8th. The more I read in the forums about upgrading the more confused I get. One thread says one thing and the next says the opposite, and the third says you will damage one component by adding or not upgrading another.

Here's the deal I've got $1,000.00 for suspension and brake parts to get my SS2 LS3 ready for the track. The vehicle is my daily driver also so whatever is done must work on the street and track. The following accurately depicts my street driving style.

Any owners who have added parts and have some seat time with the mods and are willing to share what works would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[mlee]

Depends on what kind of track you are driving... Drag Strip, Autocross???

[68RSZ]

Edited - Road course

[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by mlee

Depends on what kind of track you are driving... Drag Strip, Autocross???

This. However, a lower stance (springs) is always going to be the first step. After that is when you really need to tailor it.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

I can't give you a ton of first hand experience from the seat of a Camaro, but i can give you a lot of first hand experience behind an Australian Designed Rear Drive V8, that does just what you want to.

I drive my GTO about 20k a year, and i drive it hard. It sees the road course as often as i can get there. A GTO in stock form on a road course can be a bit daunting, but with a bit of help you can make it be very effective.

1st, Lower the CG (Center of Gravity) with higher rate lowering springs.
2nd, brake pads, brake pads, brake pads.
3rd, Radius Rod Bushing and Rear Cradle Bushings (or inserts)
4th, Alignment setup for a road course
5th, get more money.

[Jferrell88]

for a a grand go get a set a of lowering springs and sway bars. without adding to your budget there not a lot more you can do. i went with the kit from dse and couldn't be happier but there are many options as far as springs and sways go so you have to do a little research

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by 68RSZ

I am trying to get some upgrading done before I do my first road course track day on May 8th. The more I read in the forums about upgrading the more confused I get. One thread says one thing and the next says the opposite, and the third says you will damage one component by adding or not upgrading another.

Here's the deal I've got $1,000.00 for suspension and brake parts to get my SS2 LS3 ready for the track. The vehicle is my daily driver also so whatever is done must work on the street and track. The following accurately depicts my street driving style.

Any owners who have added parts and have some seat time with the mods and are willing to share what works would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

I am asked 25-50 times a day, literally what should I do about improving the handling. You gave 2 of the critical bits of info out of many that I normally ask. You will be road racing, and you gave a budget. With that, I can help you.

First of all for Brembos, I think the best brake pads for the track only are
cobalt friction brake pad. You do not want to use them for the street. So lets assume they are $150. That will leave you$850.

This is what I would do if you can fudge a little:
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
CAMAROSOLUTIONB 27MM FR. & REAR BARS WITH 4 ADJUSTABLE ENDLINKS Larger HD end links require enlarging mounting holes. $599.99 $419.99
Sub Total $969.23
shipping $87.23
Grand Total $1,056.46

If you cannot fudge, well maybe jusgt a little, then this is what I would do:

220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
sub total for coils plus shipping. $402.47
EP1200 Zeta II Rear Extreme Sub-Frame Connector Kit 255.88
PDUSA5420 ZETA REAR CAMBER AND TOE ALIGNMENT KIT 204.96

Grand total including shipping $904.79

So the above will firm up your rear subframe, and the rear alignment kit will get you to a specific alignment spec that I can assist you with. So is $54 over budget OK with you?

Any questions?

mike
dms

[68RSZ]

Originally Posted by dms

I am asked 25-50 times a day, literally what should I do about improving the handling. You gave 2 of the critical bits of info out of many that I normally ask. You will be road racing, and you gave a budget. With that, I can help you.

First of all for Brembos, I think the best brake pads for the track only are
cobalt friction brake pad. You do not want to use them for the street. So lets assume they are $150. That will leave you$850.

This is what I would do if you can fudge a little:
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31 $55.38
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31 $55.38
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31 $55.38
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31 $55.38
CAMAROSOLUTIONB 27MM FR. & REAR BARS WITH 4 ADJUSTABLE ENDLINKS Larger HD end links require enlarging mounting holes. $599.99 $419.99
Sub Total $969.23
shipping $87.23
Grand Total $1,056.46

If you cannot fudge, well maybe jusgt a little, then this is what I would do:

220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
sub total for coils plus shipping. $402.47
EP1200 Zeta II Rear Extreme Sub-Frame Connector Kit 255.88
PDUSA5420 ZETA REAR CAMBER AND TOE ALIGNMENT KIT 204.96

Grand total including shipping $904.79

So the above will firm up your rear subframe, and the rear alignment kit will get you to a specific alignment spec that I can assist you with. So is $54 over budget OK with you?

Any questions?

mike
dms

Mike,

I do appreciate the response and the info, however as my initial post stated this is my daily driver. It does about 60 miles a day round trip to work. If you could let me know which pads will work best on the street and give me good track use. Some people say ceramic, others state that they will chew up the rotors. I have also read that without doing the differential mount bushings the flex will weaken the connector welds. I know that you can't believe everything you read, but I hate to spend hard earned money on something that I should have listened to the thread and not done.

Thanks

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by 68RSZ

Mike,

I do appreciate the response and the info, however as my initial post stated this is my daily driver. It does about 60 miles a day round trip to work. If you could let me know which pads will work best on the street and give me good track use. Some people say ceramic, others state that they will chew up the rotors. I have also read that without doing the differential mount bushings the flex will weaken the connector welds. I know that you can't believe everything you read, but I hate to spend hard earned money on something that I should have listened to the thread and not done.

Thanks

Pete ran the brakes I mentioned thru all the testing that we did on the track, and swapped pads for the street. Swapping pads is easy to do and will lengthen the life of our rotors.

You asked for help, and I told you what was done on the Pedders Camaro. If you do not know the Pedders Camaro, there are videos all over showing it

Best of luck on your decision.

mike
dms

[IROCanSS]

OK dms.. changing pads is a PITA for the average Joe... Also, he asked for help, not what was done to the pedders car. I understand you are trying to push your parts but am I adding this up right, almost $400 for lowering springs... WHOA thats insane...

For the weekend autocrosser the brembos are fine, toss on some lowering springs. I went with Eibach for $200 b/c I only wanted 1" lower. Pfadt can be had for $300 and are 1.25". I have toe bars and control arms to help plant the rear end. Poly bushings to take out the spongy feel and I have sways on order. Also, I got a street/track alignment done. about -1 degree on all 4 corners. All in all I have about $1000 or so in the suspension and it handles like its on rails. and yes, I have autocrossed, just not this car... yet.

your #1 improvment is ride/handling is the springs and for auto crossing, the Pirellis are not going to last or be very good. if its a "most weekends" thing, look into some light weight 18" wheels with stickeys. The C5 Z06 wheels work great with some hoosiers but that will blow you budget. Wheel/tire swap...easy, pad swap... not so much!

Good luck!

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

Originally Posted by jrhaus76

OK dms.. changing pads is a PITA for the average Joe... Also, he asked for help, not what was done to the pedders car. I understand you are trying to push your parts but am I adding this up right, almost $400 for lowering springs... WHOA thats insane...

For the weekend autocrosser the brembos are fine, toss on some lowering springs. I went with Eibach for $200 b/c I only wanted 1" lower. Pfadt can be had for $300 and are 1.25". I have toe bars and control arms to help plant the rear end. Poly bushings to take out the spongy feel and I have sways on order. Also, I got a street/track alignment done. about -1 degree on all 4 corners. All in all I have about $1000 or so in the suspension and it handles like its on rails. and yes, I have autocrossed, just not this car... yet.

your #1 improvment is ride/handling is the springs and for auto crossing, the Pirellis are not going to last or be very good. if its a "most weekends" thing, look into some light weight 18" wheels with stickeys. The C5 Z06 wheels work great with some hoosiers but that will blow you budget. Wheel/tire swap...easy, pad swap... not so much!

Good luck!

The poster specifically asked for brakes. He also mentioned he is road racing and not auto crossing. The brake requirements for the 2 are quite different. We have tested the cobalt pads extensively on the track and they work well. Not, however a good street pad, since they do not get hot enough. Running combo pads may be too harsh for the street, create tons of noise, and premature wear on the rotors. So long term, you are better off putting a pad on that is aggressive for the track . Running OE pads on the open track will be ok for 1 or 2 laps, if driven aggressively,


The systems I gave him will give him much improvement on the track over OE, plus will be totally streetable. The only help would be the alignment front and rear, and that will take about 2-3 minute conversation

thanks
mike
dms

[Mr Twisty]

#1 on your list should be performance brake pads.

Front pads are a 15 minute job with the correct tools.

[Circuit Motorsports]

Daily driver with occasional track days and you're just starting out?

I would do a swaybar and spring set and a good set of pads all around, and I would also recommend good brake fluid and SS lines while you're at it.

Those mods will keep your ride civil for the streets but give you a really nice upgrade in handling and needed braking for a trackday. In the future you can start looking at new sport shocks, links bushings etc.

Feel free to PM us and we can help you out with your decision/purchase further

[JusticePete]

You are getting great advice here. These are the low hanging fruit, best bang-for-the buck bits for a Camaro that will see track time.

Sub-frame bush inserts EP1200
Radius Bush inserts EP6579
Cobalt Friction Pads -- They do a remarkable job with OE rotors and calipers. Your OE pads will hold up on the track. They will not fall apart or do anything bad. They just aren't as good as the Cobalt Friction pads on a road course which is no surprise because they are a full race pad. You can switch back and forth for street and track use.

GM came to Pedders when they were doing the prototype Grand Am Challenge car that was shown at SEMA 2008 to make a set of urethane radius bushes to replace the hydraulically filled OE bushes. Fluid filled bushes are just not the ideal design for the track. While working with GM we came up with the idea for a snubber to allow a Camaro owner to retain their OE bushes, but firm them up for track use. This was a great suggestion from a GM engineer and one that GM had no interest in for their own use, so we moved ahead and created them.

The subframe bush inserts are required to calm down the sub-frame under extreme conditions such as hard cornering over uneven pavement, hard cornering while acceleration through a turn over less than perfect pavement and so on because a shift in the subframe creates rear end step out. Fill in the OE NVH voids and you are good to go.

A few more notes before you head out to the track.

1. Change out all you fluids with top grade synthetics so they are track ready from brakes to differential. Yeah I know it is a relatively new car, but oil is cheap when compared to a failure.

2. Get your alignment checked.

3. Invest in a really good tire gauge. Watch your tire pressures. They will climb rapidly with track use. With street tires, 33 to 35 pounds cold should be a good place to start. When you come off th track, depending how hard you are driving, your pressures will be some where in the low 40s. Run three laps and come in to check them the first time out. Then you will know.

4. Buy the BEST helmet you can possibly afford. I have never met a racer who had an on track incident that screamed out when headed for the wall -- WOW am I glad I bough the cheapest brain bucket I could find. Your head is more valuable than any suspension parts we sell.

The Camaro did well, 100% bone stock at the Nurburing in the hands of a high quality driver. Most of us are not as smooth as the top tier professionals so we are harder on a car. With my level of driving skill, the better the car the better I drive. Put a top tier driver like Chris Brannon is a POS and he'll beat me around the track I have seen Chris run his Prius against really good track cars with very ordinary drivers. He beat some, but SHOCKED them all.

Were I you, I would get the inserts and follow the #1 rule for a first time track event. Go faster, by slowing down. The more you push the car, the lower you will be until you are used t the car and the track. You'll do well at the track event and have a daily driver you will enjoy more than you Camaro as it sits today.