Ford gunning for the Z/28?

[TheReaper]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The 5.8 Trinity is DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder and also has a bigger blower and is running 15 psi of boost. Facts are if GM upped the boost on the LS9, it would be right with the 5.8 Trinity.

At 6.2L it should be.

[hockeylover86]

Originally Posted by Visago

Not really....the supercharged Shelby GT500 is the ZL1 competitor....the GT350 is being built for track and naturally aspirated.

Remember, the supercharged GT500 came out as an 07 model, when the Camaro was ??

It would seem GM was targeting Ford, not the other way around..

The GT500 is no longer in production , so technically there is no current ZL1 competitor. Although there are probably still some 600 cars at dealers..

[Grabber]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The 5.8 Trinity is DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder and also has a bigger blower and is running 15 psi of boost. Facts are if GM upped the boost on the LS9, it would be right with the 5.8 Trinity.

The ZL1 has an LSA, not an LS9 according to various sources.

In addition, the GT500 has a 2.3L Supercharger with a 5.8L motor. The ZL1 has a 1.9L Supercharger with a 6.2L Engine. Same amount of displacement when matching up both the engine size and Supercharger size.

Also, the GT500 runs 15PSI where as the ZL1 runs 9 PSI (Some say 10PSI max on the stock setup) so, there really is not a big difference between both cars. The ZL1 has cubes and is a Pushrod vs. a smaller Modular motor.

ZL1 also has a 9:0:1 compression ratio vs. the GT500's 8:5:1. As we know, the higher the compression, the less boost that is needed to make power.

Granted, the GT500 makes more power, but, as LOWDOWN mentioned, Ford doesn't have anything that beats Chevy HP vs. HP in stock for with equal displacement, but, the engines with blowers are the exact same size and the GT500 makes over 80 more HP.

Let's not start comparing the number of valves, VVTC, V-Tec, etc.

We are talking Pushrod vs. Modular with equal displacement.

I found this on C5.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300151

So, with a smaller pulley running 13-14 PSI, the ZL1 puts down roughly 560-570 RWHP. That is still less power than a STOCK GT500 makes with a 2PSI difference.

See my point?

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Grabber

I'll throw a wrench in, and I am sure there is a "Reason" for it.

Wrench tossed...and received...so I'll throw it back...

GM made a 6.2 with at least 638 hp, vs. the Trinity Motor 5.8L making 662HP. Both are Supercharged, and from the FACTORY, the GT500 has over 20HP more.

Let me guess, boost, compression, etc. Ford makes more power with a smaller engine. The size difference of both engines is equal considering the blower on the Trinity motor is bigger than that found on the LSA IMHO.

Blower size AND pressure created BOTH have impact...

Anyhow, It will take Ford quite a bit to compete with the Z/28. The Z/28 is one bad ass machine and really came out strong. Granted, I feel it is priced a bit high, and it is a true racecar with minimal features, but, it's performance and looks deliver, hands down.

No doubt. Accuracy prevails. As it should

Originally Posted by Grabber

The ZL1 has an LSA, not an LS9 according to various sources.

But the LS9 is GM's halo 6.2, no? As the unholy Trinity is for Ford, no?

In addition, the GT500 has a 2.3L Supercharger with a 5.8L motor. The ZL1 has a 1.9L Supercharger with a 6.2L Engine. Same amount of displacement when matching up both the engine size and Supercharger size.

Also, the GT500 runs 15PSI where as the ZL1 runs 9 PSI (Some say 10PSI max on the stock setup) so, there really is not a big difference between both cars. The ZL1 has cubes and is a Pushrod vs. a smaller Modular motor.

the LS9 and Trinity engines have the exact same size blowers [reworded for accuracy] and the GT500 makes over 20 more HP with MORE BOOST.

Now you're accurate.

Let's not start comparing the number of valves, VVTC, V-Tec, etc.

We are talking Pushrod vs. Modular with equal displacement.

So, with a smaller pulley running 13-14 PSI, the ZL1 puts down roughly 560-570 RWHP. That is still less power than a STOCK GT500 makes with a 2PSI difference.

See my point?

What would the LS9 make with similar revisions, equalizing it to the Trinity? MORE.

Seeing your point? Not really. You're discounting-eliminating a few important factors...

An engine is an AIR PUMP. Allow more air to pass through it, and it will, with fuel added and burned, make more power. No?

So YOU can discount "the number of valves, VVTC, V-Tec, etc.", but they happen to be prime contributors to what power an engine will ultimately make.

BTW, you left out "flow rate (cfm) @ max rpm" which is kinda important, too. No? And more valves generally allow more flow, and OHC generally revs higher with its attendant fewer moving parts. No?

[LOWDOWN]

If you care to compare specs, here's the GM story:

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance...gines/ls9.html

...and here's the Trinity tale:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/news/...8/viewall.html

For those concerned about me fouling the water by mentioning the Raptor 6.2, perhaps we'll share this, together, from the above article:

Nor could they move over to the bigger architecture of the 6.2 V-8 as found in the SVT Raptor. That engine is too large for the Mustang engine compartment, plus it would be prohibitively expensive to design a better breathing Four-Valve cylinder head for it, as well.

As with all things involving motorsports, "Speed costs. How fast did you wanna go?!"

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Grabber

The ZL1 has an LSA, not an LS9 according to various sources.

In addition, the GT500 has a 2.3L Supercharger with a 5.8L motor. The ZL1 has a 1.9L Supercharger with a 6.2L Engine. Same amount of displacement when matching up both the engine size and Supercharger size.

Also, the GT500 runs 15PSI where as the ZL1 runs 9 PSI (Some say 10PSI max on the stock setup) so, there really is not a big difference between both cars. The ZL1 has cubes and is a Pushrod vs. a smaller Modular motor.

ZL1 also has a 9:0:1 compression ratio vs. the GT500's 8:5:1. As we know, the higher the compression, the less boost that is needed to make power.

Granted, the GT500 makes more power, but, as LOWDOWN mentioned, Ford doesn't have anything that beats Chevy HP vs. HP in stock for with equal displacement, but, the engines with blowers are the exact same size and the GT500 makes over 80 more HP.

Let's not start comparing the number of valves, VVTC, V-Tec, etc.

We are talking Pushrod vs. Modular with equal displacement.

I found this on C5.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300151

So, with a smaller pulley running 13-14 PSI, the ZL1 puts down roughly 560-570 RWHP. That is still less power than a STOCK GT500 makes with a 2PSI difference.

See my point?

My bad, the LS9 uses the same blower size but runs a lower PSI.

How can we not discuss number of valves and cams? That completely changes the way an engine makes power.

[Truck Norris]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

the LS9 and Trinity engines have the exact same size blowers [reworded for accuracy] and the GT500 makes over 20 more HP with MORE BOOST.

Ford has a long history of under rating their horsepower ratings. It may be rated at 20 hp difference at the crank but it is more if you compare how much of it makes it to the ground.

After searching youtube I found that most stock 13-14 GT500's are putting down 600whp+ vs 520-550whp for ZR1's on a chassis dyno.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Truck Norris

Ford has a long history of under rating their horsepower ratings. It may be rated at 20 hp difference at the crank but it is more if you compare how much of it makes it to the ground.

After searching youtube I found that most stock GT500's are putting down 600whp vs 520-550whp for ZR1's on a chassis dyno.

My understanding is that solid axles eat up less power than IRS set ups do.

Either way, if the engine is SAE rated, it can't be underrated much if at all.

[Truck Norris]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

My understanding is that solid axles eat up less power than IRS set ups do.

Either way, if the engine is SAE rated, it can't be underrated much if at all.

I have seen first hand a few GT500's have only 5% difference from SAE during a dyno day where all the other cars had the standard 15-20% loss. Most were SRA, with Tremec 6 speeds.

They were the old 2011-12 5.4L's with the tiny non-TVS blowers that were rated at 550hp and put down 521whp and 522whp at redline during the same dyno day a 2011 5.0L put down 365whp. There are countless other GT500's that have around 7% drive train loss as well.

So either they have lowest reported drive train loss of just about everything out there or these hand built mod motors are making more power then advertised.

I'm not trying to argue as I think the LS9 is one bad mofo of an engine, just disappointed when I see so many vids of them making 520-530whp from a engine that rated at 638hp

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Truck Norris

I have seen first hand a few GT500's have only 5% difference from SAE during a dyno day where all the other cars had the standard 15-20% loss. Most were SRA, with Tremec 6 speeds.

They were the old 2011-12 5.4L's with the tiny non-TVS blowers that were rated at 550hp and put down 521whp and 522whp at redline during the same dyno day a 2011 5.0L put down 365whp. There are countless other GT500's that have around 7% drive train loss as well.

So either they have lowest reported drive train loss of just about everything out there or these hand built mod motors are making more power then advertised.

I'm not trying to argue as I think the LS9 is one bad mofo of an engine, just disappointed when I see so many vids of them making 520-530whp from a engine that rated at 638hp

If they were only down 5% of their rated power, that means they would be realistically making 730 Hp. Don't you think Ford would rather rate it at 730 instead of 662 if that was the real number?

[Truck Norris]

Originally Posted by Truck Norris

I have seen first hand a few GT500's have only 5% difference from SAE during a dyno day where all the other cars had the standard 15-20% loss. Most were SRA, with Tremec 6 speeds.

They were the old 2011-12 5.4L's with the tiny non-TVS blowers that were rated at 550hp and put down 521whp and 522whp at redline during the same dyno day a 2011 5.0L put down 365whp.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If they were only down 5% of their rated power, that means they would be realistically making 730 Hp. Don't you think Ford would rather rate it at 730 instead of 662 if that was the real number?

^^^^^
They were the 550hp 2011-12 models which had a lot of upgrades over the previous 540hp engine.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Truck Norris

^^^^^
They were the 550hp 2011-12 models which had a lot of upgrades over the previous 540hp engine.

All I'm saying is why would Ford lie?

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by TPAJETSKI

I really just want a street legal 1/4 mile monster. Handling is great but power is what impresses most people, myself included. I've never had anyone ask me "how many Gs will it pull?" the question people ask is "How fast is it?"

The average person does not even understand the concept of acceleration as measured in "g's", no matter what direction it's being measured in. Never mind that few people have cars equipped with any way to measure it (yes, I know there are a few cars, devices, and apps).

Fun math . . . an 11.0 second car accelerates toward the traps at an average of 0.68g.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

How is it more advanced? Would you say that it is more advanced than the LT1 even though it lacks direct injection and cylinder deactivation?

Generally, yes, it is. DI is certainly not an OHV-specific technology, so although the Coyote does not yet feature it does not mean that it cannot. You could say it's a current shortcoming in the Coyote's current configuration, though.

I'm not sure which approach to light load fuel economy is best - a relatively large-displacement engine with cylinder deactivation that's big enough to run on half its cylinders, or a slightly smaller displacement engine with different gearing, or an engine with small enough displacement that it needs forced induction for high-load situations. Maybe something in between. I'm not particularly on board with the complexity, weight, and drivability issues associated with hybrid solutions.

Originally Posted by Melkor

I'll be impressed if Ford can make a GT Mustang that actually sticks to the ground. That's one of the main reasons I went with the 1le, I didn't like the body movement and slip that all Mustangs seem to have. The power was there I just never felt like it was usable power (at least not for me).

Be depressed if they don't.

Those deficiencies you note can be tuned out even in the earlier S197's with little more than a better (read in part, wider) choice of wheel & tire sizes, better shock/strut damping, and a bit more roll stiffness. And brake pads with more 'bite' Nothing that Ford couldn't do (or couldn't have done), except they chose not to.

Back when I bought my 2008 (and there was no choice to make other than "V6/GT/GT500, pick one", it was with full acknowledgement that I was about to buy a blank canvas before I even went near a dealership. Same way that it was for the '79 Malibu I had before, and the '72 Pinto before that. Exactly the same kinds of mods, even. What the factory fails to do, you just do as a DIY.

But I love that Camaro and Mustang are competing with one another. That just means we, the customer, win

This ↑↑↑


Norm

[HeavyIOM]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Again, don't complain to me about Ford's 6.2. Since you seem to know what's happening @ Ford, is the 6.2 slated to be continued and/or improved?

BTW, how many 6.2s will Ford sell this year? How many will GM sell? A low volume engine like that doesn't earn headlines like the Triton does. If you want Ford to improve it, tell THEM...

Im not complaining im just pointing out that you say not to compare old gen to new gen, and then do just that by comparing GMs new 6.2 to fords old 6.2.

How do I seem to know whats happening at Ford? I have my guesses as do everyone else, but no one besides the guys at Ford know whats going on.