5.0 VS US

[acammer]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

I agree the L99 is usually going to win a 1/4 mile drag race. Hard to out launch or outshift an automatic.

On stock street tires, I don't think the L99 has some big advantage. Either car is gonna be around a 2.0xx 60' times, and pretty even the rest of the way down. The LS3 might trap a few MPH faster.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

I have a hand full of 1.8-1.9 slips from the old L99 on stock tires. Check the fast last. The L99 is usually the fast car in a 1/4 mile drag race. Same on the Mustang forums,6th gen Camaro forums, etc. Automatic transmission will be faster.

[acammer]

I made my initial comments off the top of my head and based on my own experiences at the track. I'm now looking at the fast lists. Comparing STOCK LS3 to L99:

Best LS3 60' time is a 1.892, average for the top 30 is 2.059, with the best ET being a 12.588@110.30mph.

Best L99 60' is a 1.886, average for the top 32 is 2.033, with the best ET/MPH being 12.768@108.09mph.

So, the best, and average 60' times are very close. The LS3 has a significant (>.1s, >2mph) advantage in average 1/4 mile ET and trap speed. Only 5 stock L99 cars were able to get into the 12 second range, 16 of the stock LS3 cars were able to do so.

I stand by my original statement that the L99 does not have a significant advantage, in stock or near stock form, on street tires. The numbers actually point to the LS3 as having an advantage. Obviously, the LS3 is SIGNIFICANTLY more driver dependent, and without drive-mod would be at a significant dis-advantage.

[bayarea408]

Originally Posted by acammer

I made my initial comments off the top of my head and based on my own experiences at the track. I'm now looking at the fast lists. Comparing STOCK LS3 to L99:

Best LS3 60' time is a 1.892, average for the top 30 is 2.059, with the best ET being a 12.588@110.30mph.

Best L99 60' is a 1.886, average for the top 32 is 2.033, with the best ET/MPH being 12.768@108.09mph.

So, the best, and average 60' times are very close. The LS3 has a significant (>.1s, >2mph) advantage in average 1/4 mile ET and trap speed. Only 5 stock L99 cars were able to get into the 12 second range, 16 of the stock LS3 cars were able to do so.

I stand by my original statement that the L99 does not have a significant advantage, in stock or near stock form, on street tires. The numbers actually point to the LS3 as having an advantage. Obviously, the LS3 is SIGNIFICANTLY more driver dependent, and without drive-mod would be at a significant dis-advantage.

The only advantage is running into incapable M6 drivers which are the majority. A properly driven LS3 is faster then a L99, i own a L99 and have driven many M6 ls3's, they got more punch stock plain and simple. Stock trim A6 5.0 dragging everyone

[Royal Tiger]

The issue with the Camaro is Chevy handicapped the A6 with the L99 which has less power. A6 Corvettes have the LS3. In just about every other car the auto is faster. Check out the new ZL1 & 911 for instance.

[gmcvt]

Originally Posted by acammer

I made my initial comments off the top of my head and based on my own experiences at the track. I'm now looking at the fast lists. Comparing STOCK LS3 to L99:

Best LS3 60' time is a 1.892, average for the top 30 is 2.059, with the best ET being a 12.588@110.30mph.

Best L99 60' is a 1.886, average for the top 32 is 2.033, with the best ET/MPH being 12.768@108.09mph.

So, the best, and average 60' times are very close. The LS3 has a significant (>.1s, >2mph) advantage in average 1/4 mile ET and trap speed. Only 5 stock L99 cars were able to get into the 12 second range, 16 of the stock LS3 cars were able to do so.

I stand by my original statement that the L99 does not have a significant advantage, in stock or near stock form, on street tires. The numbers actually point to the LS3 as having an advantage. Obviously, the LS3 is SIGNIFICANTLY more driver dependent, and without drive-mod would be at a significant dis-advantage.

This is more like what I expected. Had the A6 not been handicapped by the L99 and gears, the numbers you quoted would be a different story.

Nevertheless, whether M6 or A6, when looking at 5.0 numbers, we are, on average, about .5 slower out of the gate. Even with Camaro having a slight horsepower advantage and a large torque advantage.

[rontammy0]

Originally Posted by gmcvt

This is more like what I expected. Had the A6 not been handicapped by the L99 and gears, the numbers you quoted would be a different story.

Nevertheless, whether M6 or A6, when looking at 5.0 numbers, we are, on average, about .5 slower out of the gate. Even with Camaro having a slight horsepower advantage and a large torque advantage.

The more you take internet racing as fact.....the more you lose st the track. The fast list is not your rulebook for l99 vs ls3. Joe average in an m6 is not beating joe average in a A6. I havnt had one race against a v8 5th gen....or 6th gen for that matter. That sucks... but ive been beating 5.0s regularly.

[gmcvt]

Originally Posted by rontammy0

The more you take internet racing as fact.....the more you lose st the track. The fast list is not your rulebook for l99 vs ls3. Joe average in an m6 is not beating joe average in a A6. I havnt had one race against a v8 5th gen....or 6th gen for that matter. That sucks... but ive been beating 5.0s regularly.

Understood. And I agree that you cant take "internet racing" as gospel. And for sure the fast list doesn't represent every possible scenario. But the fast list shouldn't be disregarded either. It does reflect, to some degree or another, an empirical collection of information gathered at the track. Having drag raced both auto's and manuals, I certainly agree with the fact that autos, in general, are going to be quicker. Given mostly equal variables otherwise.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by rontammy0

The more you take internet racing as fact.....the more you lose st the track. The fast list is not your rulebook for l99 vs ls3. Joe average in an m6 is not beating joe average in a A6. I havnt had one race against a v8 5th gen....or 6th gen for that matter. That sucks... but ive been beating 5.0s regularly.

Someone else (GossipSquirrelJelena) put the fast list forward as the "standard" to show the L99 out 60' and performing the LS3. The data didn't support that conclusion at all.

I would agree that the fast list is not an "average" representation, these are the representative "best" times for each configuration. It showcases the potential of each configuration very well.

I said it before, and I'll say it again - the LS3 is far more driver-dependent. For me, I like that. Not only does the car have to perform, but I have to perform, to be successful in any type of speed contest. To me, that's part of the fun, it's more engaging.

I don't see anybody arguing here that an automatic is at a dis-advantage in a drag-race. At stockish power levels, I would argue it's not a significant advantage. Maybe for a sub-par stick shift driver it is. I'd happily race anybody mod for mod with an L99 that wants to prove me wrong, but it I just haven't found the L99 to have some big advantage.

[rontammy0]

Originally Posted by gmcvt

Understood. And I agree that you cant take "internet racing" as gospel. And for sure the fast list doesn't represent every possible scenario. But the fast list shouldn't be disregarded either. It does reflect, to some degree or another, an empirical collection of information gathered at the track. Having drag raced both auto's and manuals, I certainly agree with the fact that autos, in general, are going to be quicker. Given mostly equal variables otherwise.

The top guys on the fast list are hard core racers with alot of experience. Its hard to use that as a measuring stick.

[gmcvt]

Originally Posted by rontammy0

The top guys on the fast list are hard core racers with alot of experience. Its hard to use that as a measuring stick.

very good point.

[acammer]

Is there an expectation that only the M6 guys on the fast list are hardcore racers and the A6 guys are all just average Joe's? It may very well be the case that the fast list represents the "Best of the Best" in both cars and drivers, but that would be the case equally for the A6 and M6 cars. So, if it's on even terms, then it still disproves the theory that the A6, in stock/near stock form, has some advantage over the M6.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by acammer

Someone else (GossipSquirrelJelena) put the fast list forward as the "standard" to show the L99 out 60' and performing the LS3. The data didn't support that conclusion at all.

I would agree that the fast list is not an "average" representation, these are the representative "best" times for each configuration. It showcases the potential of each configuration very well.

I said it before, and I'll say it again - the LS3 is far more driver-dependent. For me, I like that. Not only does the car have to perform, but I have to perform, to be successful in any type of speed contest. To me, that's part of the fun, it's more engaging.

I don't see anybody arguing here that an automatic is at a dis-advantage in a drag-race. At stockish power levels, I would argue it's not a significant advantage. Maybe for a sub-par stick shift driver it is. I'd happily race anybody mod for mod with an L99 that wants to prove me wrong, but it I just haven't found the L99 to have some big advantage.

Of course fast lists verifies my conclusions. I said across all forums. Check a few out and get back to me. Or use your own personal data. Post your manual slip. I'll post my L99 slips. And rontammy can post his. I'd bet a weeks pay. You'd be the slowest of the three. In the real world (AT the drag strip) the automatic transmission wins 95% of the time. There is no even terms when two cars line up on Friday night grudge races.. Automatics are simply easier to operate. Easier to launch. I don't care if the Ls3 traps a couple MPH faster. Your not running down a car that leaves you at the line. Here's an example. Me driving my wifes bolt-on 5.0. Against an Automatic Z06 corvette. The vette traps 128 with a 1.8 sixty to my 117 with a 1.6 sixty. But couldn't run me down in 1320 ft.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Of course fast lists verifies my conclusions. I said across all forums. Check a few out and get back to me. Or use your own personal data. Post your manual slip. I'll post my L99 slips. And rontammy can post his. I'd bet a weeks pay. You'd be the slowest of the three. In the real world (AT the drag strip) the automatic transmission wins 95% of the time. There is no even terms when two cars line up on Friday night grudge races.. Automatics are simply easier to operate. Easier to launch. I don't care if the Ls3 traps a couple MPH faster. Your not running down a car that leaves you at the line. Here's an example. Me driving my wifes bolt-on 5.0. Against an Automatic Z06 corvette. The vette traps 128 with a 1.8 sixty to my 117 with a 1.6 sixty. But couldn't run me down in 1320 ft.

The only apples to apples comparison would be stock for stock. Once you start introducing modifications (ie. "across all forms" which I don't see anywhere in your previous posts), you've got too many variables.

Stock for stock, the LS3 outperforms the L99 in the quarter mile. That was the original discussion here - see posts #20, #24 and #25. I reviewed the data on the forum as you suggested, and it supports the fact that the stock LS3 outperforms the L99 in both ET and trap speed. There was not much of a difference in the 60'.

No where has anyone disagreed that the auto isn't the preferred way to go at the dragstrip, especially once you start to add power and traction. Obviously if you've spent any amount of time at a drag strip, you know the 60' is everything, and the automatic has an advantage there in the case of easy, repeatable launches.

But that's not discussion at hand. Bayarea408 posited (post #20) that the auto 5.0 > 5.0M6/LS3 > L99 all in stock form. rontammy0 disagreed (post #24). gmcvt challenged that (post #25). So we reviewed the stock for stock data and supported Bayarea408's conclusion.