[ecoswag1990]

Originally Posted by DanSS24

Euro cars are usually a pain to work on or mod, and very pricey in comparison to domestic cars. Very expensive when taking to dealer for normal servicing, unless you buy their plan, like BMW. However, nowadays, even taking my Charger to the dealer for an oil change is expensive, so I do it myself. Especially if you use synthetics. And yes, as far as Euro cars being a status symbol, even the entry level BMW/Mercedes owner feel a little prestigious.

Yea I think the german cars will hold their own. Shoot I almost got an A4 myself but figured I get more options for less money with the pony car. Plus it's faster

[Design1stCode2nd]

The thing is most "German" cars are luxury Marque's. Only VW is a mainstream German brand (Mini is BMW just smaller), even there the quality (meaning fit and finish, materials, etc) is better than American, Japanese and Korean makes.

You have to pay for that added fit and finish and historically they have been less reliable than current non-German manufacturers.

VW would never do it but I'd be interested to see if they could compete with a similar car to a Mustang or Camaro.

I think Hyundai and Kia are going to try, I think it will take them another 20 years to have a version that is competitive but I think they will get there.

Just look at the crap Hyundai and Kia put out 20 years ago to what they have today, huge transformation.

[BRMike]

My wife and I cross shopped the 435i convertible, Audi A5/S5 cabriolet with the Mustang. There was no doubt the German offerings were well built and felt top notch. However, I could just not justify the cost. Not to mention the questionable reliability and long term maintenance costs (typically keep vehicles 7-10 years).

[G-Mann]

I really like what I have seen out of the gate with the Camaro and it is worth a look if performance is at the top of the list, however, it will be the total pkg that will win over the M crowd if delivered. $ for $ I just don't see how an SS can be beat.

[thebiglubinsky]

The M4 is not as good at it used to be. The prices have gotten out of control. There are tons of us out there that have the money for and will cross shop these cars. I see great value with this Camaro.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by G-Mann

I really like what I have seen out of the gate with the Camaro and it is worth a look if performance is at the top of the list, however, it will be the total pkg that will win over the M crowd if delivered. $ for $ I just don't see how an SS can be beat.

$$$ doesn't buy status for the Camaro.

M4/M3 says performance with class

Camaro SS/Mustang GT/ Challenger R/T..says affordable performance but no prestige.

[VADER SS L99]

I don't think the majority of Audi, BMW and Mercedes shopers don't cross shop a Cadillac much less a Chevy but they should. Mechanically and performance wise I think the American cars are right there with them and in some cases much better.

A good friend of mine has a 3 series and another guy I know has a M3. The EX had a VW. The one constant of all of them was huge maintenance cost, repair bills, reliability and initial cost. Call me cheap but I could never get a German car after seeing what they went through. VW broke a timing belt at 90k and it destroyed the engine. My friends 3 series always has something little that breaks but cost a arm and a leg to fix. The M3 had DCT trans problems and spun the engine bearings just out of warranty. I don't remember what the repair bill was on that V8 M3 but I remember it being insane.

[thebiglubinsky]

A comparably equipped 435i would be $10k more. It's become a chicks car and it's way over priced. Just look at those tiny little exhaust pipes, lol. The M4 may be sick but it's $30k more.

[68fbjjz109]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

The thing is most "German" cars are luxury Marque's. Only VW is a mainstream German brand (Mini is BMW just smaller), even there the quality (meaning fit and finish, materials, etc) is better than American, Japanese and Korean makes.

You have to pay for that added fit and finish and historically they have been less reliable than current non-German manufacturers.

VW would never do it but I'd be interested to see if they could compete with a similar car to a Mustang or Camaro.

I think Hyundai and Kia are going to try, I think it will take them another 20 years to have a version that is competitive but I think they will get there.

Just look at the crap Hyundai and Kia put out 20 years ago to what they have today, huge transformation.

Hyunadi and Kia are extremely fast followers. The K900 is so similar to a 5 series it's not funny. Hyunadi's new engine testing facility is comparable to a F1 team. Very new and lots of tools to build quality power plants.

The up scaling of the pony car segment in general, is also very fast. Mechanically, I would say aside from outline issues they are just as good if not better than German cars. My coworker just had a 19K "service campaign" on his 4.4L TT BMW 5 series. Good thing it still had a warranty, it was a major issue. Not just new components, very different components where put on.

I am not sure if the dent in the German market here in the US is a big as Cadillac would want, but they are gaining.

[Number 3]

First, BMW sells higher HP calibrations for their cars through the dealerships that maintain warranty. I keep wishing GM would do more of this. I installed the GMPP calibration in my Sky Redline and it was an awesome improvement and no loss of warranty.

Second, simply look at the warranty and service you get with the German brands (BMW, MB and Audi). 4 years vs. 3. Automatic loaner car for even the simplest concerns, and they will usually just come get your car from work for an oil change.

Yes, people will cross shop. And yes, when I proposed GM needed make 4 Series buyers think hard I got the " 'merican muscle ..... blah, blah blan" shout downs from several folks.

The Gen 6, as nice as it looks on paper, does not have the interior to make anyone buying a BMW, Audi or MB think twice. But for performance that's another question. And that is what makes the Gen6 a great value proposition.

Now the issue is, like for most Corvette buyers, do you want to sit in the waiting room with a bunch of Cruze and Spark buyers waiting for your oil change or do you want that free loaner and come back in a few hours not the least bit bothered?

And don't get me wrong, I love Cruze and Spark owners. But that has always been a complaint of Corvette buyers. Spend $50, 60 or 70K for your sports car and you get no better treatment at the Chevy dealer. Now if they had bought a Porsche????

[thebiglubinsky]

Maybe that's why German cars are getting so expensive. It's because they're having to pay out so much money for repairs under warranty. They've just decided to pass it on to the next buyers(suckers). Those rich fools have more money than they know what to do with.

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by thebiglubinsky

Maybe that's why German cars are getting so expensive. It's because they're having to pay out so much money for repairs under warranty. They've just decided to pass it on to the next buyers(suckers). Those rich fools have more money than they know what to do with.

The fact that they know exactly what to do with it is why they are rich fools!

[Design1stCode2nd]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The Gen 6, as nice as it looks on paper, does not have the interior to make anyone buying a BMW, Audi or MB think twice. But for performance that's another question. And that is what makes the Gen6 a great value proposition.

I'd have to disagree a little. compared to a well optioned 5 series no, the interior does not compare; a base 328i with vinyl they yes the Camaro looks very good.

I think the Gen 6 interior is very good for a mainstream car. i know I'm not going to get buttery leather and a hand stitched dash as this price point. However, I'm very impressed with the tech and creature comforts that are available in the Gen 6 that are not in my 2011 M3 (obviously some of this is due to it being new).

Take a look at a 2015 M4, you can't get cooled seats, I don't think it yet has Apple car play or a valved exhaust.

The one thing it will have is more interior room however since it's based off a sedan chassis. That is one of my concerns and will be the first thing I check this fall.

[IOMike]

BMW isn't really a benchmark to compare interiors to. If it weren't for the ipad looking screen stuck to the dash I could easily see a 2015 3 or 4 series being mistaken for a 2005.