[13vertss]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Hey I said Challenger sales don't count. I'm sure Chevy is proud of their sales figures and 3rd place standing with the 6th Gen Camaro. To celebrate the occasion 20% off the entire Camaro line is coming.

All I see is that Camaro wins the common people purchase. These are people who go to the lots and buy the best car for them. Camaro sells more. I see Ford can't win in this category, so they unload 30% to fleet so they can save face and make it look like there still selling better. So if that makes you feel good, that's fine, but you know it's just smoke and mirrors.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Hey I said Challenger sales don't count. I'm sure Chevy is proud of their sales figures and 3rd place standing with the 6th Gen Camaro. To celebrate the occasion 20% off the entire Camaro line is coming.

Fact is that retail sales for all three aren't great but Ford and Dodge are pumping out over 1/3 fleet volume. GM isn't playing that game and their statements reinforce that point each month.

Camaro is finding far more retail customers than Ford or Dodge and they are paying nearly $3,000 more to get one. That's after incentives

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Hey I said Challenger sales don't count. I'm sure Chevy is proud of their sales figures and 3rd place standing with the 6th Gen Camaro. To celebrate the occasion 20% off the entire Camaro line is coming.

Highest retail sales and ATPs prove how well the Camaro is doing. Seems like the petty people who like to point out the Camaros "bad sales" are just refusing to eat crow. This is why the Mustang 2018 refresh is so huge, it had a long way to go to catch up.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Fact is that retail sales for all three aren't great but Ford and Dodge are pumping out over 1/3 fleet volume. GM isn't playing that game and their statements reinforce that point each month.

Camaro is finding far more retail customers than Ford or Dodge and they are paying nearly $3,000 more to get one. That's after incentives

So I guess what your saying is that Chevy wouldn't sell the car to any fleet retailers if they requested? Or is it that fleet retailers are simply not requesting? It would be an interesting answer either way. Isn't the reason why Chevy is thinking about less option packages to be more competitive, if they were happy with 3rd place why bother?

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So I guess what your saying is that Chevy wouldn't sell the car to any fleet retailers if they requested? Or is it that fleet retailers are simply not requesting? It would be an interesting answer either way. Isn't the reason why Chevy is thinking about less option packages to be more competitive, if they were happy with 3rd place why bother?

They don't want to sell to fleet, because there in nearly no profit what so ever. Why build cars to barely make money they decided to stop playing the game. Would you work hard to have something built and not make much off it? They need to sell between 7-10 Camaros fleet to make the profit of one retail. ford plays that game and for owners, it will backfire on them. The market is so flooded now, there cars will loose there value fast as there are many many used ones out there.

[Jeb114]

They sell to anyone who wants to buy them, My brother runs a Enterprise rental agency. He told me Challengers and Mustang's get rented 3 times more than the Camaro. People on vacation and business people do not like the visibility or no trunk. More then once people who have rented for the week have returned to get another car because they feel it uncomfortable to drive, there statement is we can not see out of it. Enterprise does not buy a lot of them because nobody want's to rent them. The enthusiast love's them but the general public find's them useless. So your argument about rental's might have holes in it.

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

They sell to anyone who wants to buy them, My brother runs a Enterprise rental agency. He told me Challengers and Mustang's get rented 3 times more than the Camaro. People on vacation and business people do not like the visibility or no trunk. More then once people who have rented for the week have returned to get another car because they feel it uncomfortable to drive, there statement is we can not see out of it. Enterprise does not buy a lot of them because nobody want's to rent them. The enthusiast love's them but the general public find's them useless. So your argument about rental's might have holes in it.

Exactly.
The notion that fleet sales should be ignored is delusional.
For one it assumes a mindset that rental companies randomly pick which cars to purchase out of a hat. In fact, it is a measure of market demand. As you point out, no rental company wants a car that their consumer finds miserable to drive. GM is not turning down requests for camaro's from rental companies. A sale is a sale is a sale. They can spin all they want about not focusing on fleet, but its all baloney when they have months and months of extra surplus camaro sitting on retail lots. If lots weren't overflowing with inventory and requiring massive incentive 20% blowouts, it would be much more credible. But there is currently over 4.48 months worth of inventory. For comparison sake there is currently 2.65 months inventory of Mustangs available, and thats for a car one year further in its lifecycle.


Secondly, no one here has posted any degree of profit margin on any of the sales listed. Retail or fleet, so its a ton of misinformed conjecture on which car if more profitable.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

They sell to anyone who wants to buy them, My brother runs a Enterprise rental agency. He told me Challengers and Mustang's get rented 3 times more than the Camaro. People on vacation and business people do not like the visibility or no trunk. More then once people who have rented for the week have returned to get another car because they feel it uncomfortable to drive, there statement is we can not see out of it. Enterprise does not buy a lot of them because nobody want's to rent them. The enthusiast love's them but the general public find's them useless. So your argument about rental's might have holes in it.

Originally Posted by germanicus

Exactly.
The notion that fleet sales should be ignored is delusional.
For one it assumes a mindset that rental companies randomly pick which cars to purchase out of a hat. In fact, it is a measure of market demand. As you point out, no rental company wants a car that their consumer finds miserable to drive. GM is not turning down requests for camaro's from rental companies. A sale is a sale is a sale. They can spin all they want about not focusing on fleet, but its all baloney when they have months and months of extra surplus camaro sitting on retail lots. If lots weren't overflowing with inventory and requiring massive incentive 20% blowouts, it would be much more credible. But there is currently over 4.48 months worth of inventory. For comparison sake there is currently 2.65 months inventory of Mustangs available, and thats for a car one year further in its lifecycle.


Secondly, no one here has posted any degree of profit margin on any of the sales listed. Retail or fleet, so its a ton of misinformed conjecture on which car if more profitable.

Interesting spin on the rentals. If accepted as true as stated above, then why isn't Camaro dead last in retail sales also? The fact that Camaros are first in retail sales, perhaps is a large reason the others pursue lower profit fleet/rental sales to stay competitive....overall profit wise, that is.

GM probably has refused fleet sales, especially if the rental companies wanted to spend less than what Mustang or Challenger would take...and in the end make little or no profit.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Hey I said Challenger sales don't count. I'm sure Chevy is proud of their sales figures and 3rd place standing with the 6th Gen Camaro. To celebrate the occasion 20% off the entire Camaro line is coming.

By third place you mean in sales to Hertz, Dollar and Thrifty? Indeed. GM laughing all the way to the bank. Funny thing happens when GM offers 20% off MSRP...people select higher MSRP's and spend the same amount of money.

Originally Posted by newmoon

So I guess what your saying is that Chevy wouldn't sell the car to any fleet retailers if they requested?

Which part of "rental cap" don't you understand? Barra made it very clear at the end of 2015 that GM would cap fleet sales at 20% and rental sales at less than 10%. Contrast this with FoMoCo and FCA which sell 1 in 3 vehicles to fleet for little to no profit. Retail is king, and no one sells more vehicles to retail customers than General Motors.

Originally Posted by newmoon

Or is it that fleet retailers are simply not requesting?

They can request all they want but they won't get more than GM allows them to have. Why would GM give up profits for rental sales when it can make far more selling retail?

Originally Posted by newmoon

Isn't the reason why Chevy is thinking about less option packages to be more competitive, if they were happy with 3rd place why bother?

Lower cost of entry makes the car more attractive to impoverished Mustang buyers who can't otherwise afford Camaro. Porsche does this quite well. Stripped out cars at low MSRP to get buyers in the showroom then double the price once the option boxes are checked.

Originally Posted by Jeb114

They sell to anyone who wants to buy them, My brother runs a Enterprise rental agency. He told me Challengers and Mustang's get rented 3 times more than the Camaro. People on vacation and business people do not like the visibility or no trunk. More then once people who have rented for the week have returned to get another car because they feel it uncomfortable to drive, there statement is we can not see out of it. Enterprise does not buy a lot of them because nobody want's to rent them. The enthusiast love's them but the general public find's them useless. So your argument about rental's might have holes in it.

Anecdotal experience aside, no, GM will not sell more than 8% to rental no matter what they ask for. That's the cap for 2016 and it's payed off brilliantly for GM financially.

Originally Posted by germanicus

The notion that fleet sales should be ignored is delusional.
For one it assumes a mindset that rental companies randomly pick which cars to purchase out of a hat.

No, they select the cheapest car they buy. If they can buy 100 Mustangs at $17,999 vs 100 Challengers at $17,998, they will buy the Challengers every time and twice on Sunday.

Originally Posted by germanicus

GM is not turning down requests for camaro's from rental companies.

They are actually. Deliberately. Prior to 2016, GM averaged 25% fleet sales. Barra et al made the decision to cap fleet sales at 20% and rental at < 10% moving forward. Total sales declined but profits soared. Now GM's in the best financial shape it's been in decades while FoMoCo and FCA are in a world of hurt.

Originally Posted by germanicus

A sale is a sale is a sale. They can spin all they want about not focusing on fleet, but its all baloney when they have months and months of extra surplus camaro sitting on retail lots.

Is it? Would you rather sell 5 widgets at $1 profit/widget or 4 widgets at $3 profit/widget?

Originally Posted by germanicus

If lots weren't overflowing with inventory and requiring massive incentive 20% blowouts, it would be much more credible. But there is currently over 4.48 months worth of inventory. For comparison sake there is currently 2.65 months inventory of Mustangs available, and thats for a car one year further in its lifecycle.

If GM wants to maintain more inventory, let them. Doesn't change the fact that GM is selling more Camaro's to retail customers at higher prices than Mustang or Challenger.

Originally Posted by germanicus

Secondly, no one here has posted any degree of profit margin on any of the sales listed. Retail or fleet, so its a ton of misinformed conjecture on which car if more profitable.

No one outside of a handful of people at each automaker knows the answer to the "profitability" question. But we know how much revenue is being generated from retail sales which make up the vast majority of total sales. GM easily beats FoMoCo and FCA. We also know how much total revenue and profit GM makes which easily eclipses FoMoCo and FCA.

[Michigan1LTRS]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Not so "badly beaten". Camaro continues to be in the best position among pony cars.

Snapshot of retail sales and ATP's for August and YTD. Camaro retail sales for August up from July and all three saw ATP's dip slightly. Camaro still ahead YTD both sales and ATP.

Retail ATP's August 2017 (JDPin)
Camaro: $39,019
Challenger: $36,427
Mustang: $34,365

Retail Sales August 2017
Camaro: 4,866
Challenger: 3,939
Mustang: 3,819

Retail ATP's YTD 2017 (JDPin)
Camaro: $39,943
Challenger: $37,296
Mustang: $35,847

Retail Sales YTD 2017
Camaro: 43,130
Mustang: 38,754
Challenger: 31,427

Dodge is fleet dumping at record pace. I've never seen it this high. FoMoCo is over 30% fleet across the company with Lincoln in the high 20% range. Going to be a rough year for FoMoCo and FCA.

Yep Camaro wins again. That's all I needed to see. Pony car king in retail sales again. Later

[UK Basketball Rocks]

Originally Posted by Michigan1LTRS

Yep Camaro wins again. That's all I needed to see. Pony car king in retail sales again. Later

Im really surprised at the Challengers but it seems they are getting more popular as time goes by and they are making some great looking cars right now.

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

No, they select the cheapest car they buy. If they can buy 100 Mustangs at $17,999 vs 100 Challengers at $17,998, they will buy the Challengers every time and twice on Sunday.

I really question this. You are proposing they simply take the cheapest vehicles with no assessment of market forces/reliability/consumer desirability indices? If this were the case all rental fleets would be 100% Toyota Prius. Its fantasy. Rental companies have to balance costs to maintain their fleet with having cars desired by their customers. Do you really believe they only take the cheapest vehicles? That is the only metric?

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Is it? Would you rather sell 5 widgets at $1 profit/widget or 4 widgets at $3 profit/widget?

Where are you getting the net profit assessments?

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

If GM wants to maintain more inventory, let them. Doesn't change the fact that GM is selling more Camaro's to retail customers at higher prices than Mustang or Challenger.

Higher prices are meaningless without knowing all other factors. There is a huge cost to delivering vehicles that sit unsold for 6 months on dealer lots. It indicates a lack of knowing their market demand. Adding a third shift just to have inventory go over 6 month periods last year. Camaro sales are at historic lows. This is not according to plan.

[UK Basketball Rocks]

Originally Posted by germanicus

I really question this. You are proposing they simply take the cheapest vehicles with no assessment of market forces/reliability/consumer desirability indices? If this were the case all rental fleets would be 100% Toyota Prius. Its fantasy. Rental companies have to balance costs to maintain their fleet with having cars desired by their customers. Do you really believe they only take the cheapest vehicles? That is the only metric?


Where are you getting the net profit assessments?


Higher prices are meaningless without knowing all other factors. There is a huge cost to delivering vehicles that sit unsold for 6 months on dealer lots. It indicates a lack of knowing their market demand. Adding a third shift just to have inventory go over 6 month periods last year. Camaro sales are at historic lows. This is not according to plan.

Im just shocked by the Dodge and the Mustang isnt doing too great either....

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by germanicus

Where are you getting the net profit

he is responding to your statement "a sale is a sale is a sale" by giving an example or actually asking you a question, which u didn't answer. There are possible exceptions to the concept of working less for same or more profit and sometimes a strategy involves working harder for less profit, like maybe if a determination is made that you can drive an emerging competitor out of business by lowering your price and even taking a loss on a sale in order to do that. typically companies will be happy to produce less widgets (aka work less) at more profit than the alternative.