[RedHot18]

Hi everyone, I'm about a month away from my first track outing in new car.
I'll be running cabotech xp-12 pads front and rear, switching brake fluid to RBF 600 motul and of course new oil and filter. Was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for negative camber settings that will help on the track but not be to extreme to cause extra wear on the street. Anyone that is interested Daytona International Speedway Oct 6,7,8 with Henry Gilbert, performance driving group.

[BMR Suspension]

The purpose of adding negative camber is to keep the tire contact patch as large as possible in turns. As the body rolls over, the tire will "stand up". Additional negative camber allows the tire to stand up and roll into a larger contact patch for the most grip possible. The most effective way to figure out how much negative camber is needed is by measuring tire temperatures. By reading the inside, center, and outside temps, you can see how much of the tire's contact patch is being used, and adjust camber accordingly. This reading will also tell you how much air pressure you should be running.

The downside to this is that it takes a lot of time and effort to dial in the settings. This is something race teams work on constantly over the course of a race weekend.

Here is some very basic camber info... If you are running on a flatter track with no banked turns, you will want to run more negative camber. You will be turning more aggressively on a flat track and the tire will want to stand up more. On tracks with banking, you'll want less negative camber. This is because the banking helps turn the car and less steering input will be needed.

If it were me and I was running at Daytona, I would run about -1.5 degrees of camber front and rear. In the front I would run as much positive caster as possible (make sure both sides are equal), and about a 1/16"-1/8" toe in. These might not be the optimal alignment specs, but this will be a good start for a first outing. If you take tires temps and pressures after each session, and keep good notes on how the car feels, it will be easier to dial the car in as you go to more track weekends.

If there is anything else I can help with please feel free to reach out!

Good luck, and have fun!

Pete

[ZED SLED]

Might find what you need in this guide
2017-chevrolet-camaro-race-track-preparation-guide.pdf

[Ryephile]

BMR: what? :( Caster isn't adjustable, and you're way off with that much toe, and that's not nearly enough front camber. I think you're trying to help, but you're ending up pointing him out in left field.


-->RedHot18: The big head start is right in your owners manual HP Supplement. -2.0° front camber, -1.5° rear camber, 0.05° toe-in for each tire front and back. These settings are perfect for your first track day. As you progress through the ranks over the years you'll want a bit more camber, but with that brings additional tramlining, something you don't want to distract yourself with right now.

Take a look at this post in the ZL1 1LE alignment spec thread Your suspension is the FE4, but scroll down to the ZL1 Track alignment. That's what you want. FYI, the ZL1 Track alignment is also super fun on the street, and it's not extreme enough to have markedly undue tire wear, unless you never take any turns.

[lmcgrew79]

2.2 front is maxed which is still not quite enough on track, should be find for the street, im at 1.5 in the rear which seems to be wearing pretty good on track, not sure i would add much more as it gets off the turns really well. If anything the zl1 is lacking a bit of front grip.

[BMR Suspension]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

BMR: what? :( Caster isn't adjustable, and you're way off with that much toe, and that's not nearly enough front camber. I think you're trying to help, but you're ending up pointing him out in left field.

Well I apologize for recommending a caster change. It slipped my mind that caster is not adjustable. As far as the other stuff, after many track outings with our 2016 Camaro, extensive amounts of data, and being a NASCAR crew chief and setup guy for years, I'd bet I'm way closer than you think for a guy looking to not kill tires. He is also going to Daytona (a track I have a lot of experience at), and if they are running the full course, I think he is going to be very close.

My suggestions were also based on a novice open track driver. I should have inquired about him skill level. I apologize.

@RedHot18, go have fun and enjoy your car!

[Ryephile]

You're proving that every car is different, and raising your peacock feathers about some other experience isn't going to change how this platform works best. Remember there is a lot of expertise out there for this platform that you're not aware of or privy to.

The HP Supplement Track alignment is close to spot-on for Novice to Intermediate drivers on most road courses. -1.5 camber in the front is simply too low unless you're strictly doing touring laps. This platform is also very sensitive to having too much toe-in. Anything more than 0.1° per side gives noticeable dynamic bump-steer and upsets the car. Personally I disagree with the GM "street" alignment recommendations as they over-toe the car and make it unstable with asymmetrical bumps. Assuming you're talking about 1/8" toe-in total at a 20" wheel rim (21.25"), that's about 0.17° per side, which is triple over what the car works well with. A 1/16" total toe-in is even a bit much on this platform.

I know you've worked hard to get where you're at, that's why you should be careful to not give bad advice. Peace.

[Sooner Cole]

Originally Posted by BMR Suspension

Well I apologize for recommending a caster change. It slipped my mind that caster is not adjustable. As far as the other stuff, after many track outings with our 2016 Camaro, extensive amounts of data, and being a NASCAR crew chief and setup guy for years, I'd bet I'm way closer than you think for a guy looking to not kill tires. He is also going to Daytona (a track I have a lot of experience at), and if they are running the full course, I think he is going to be very close.

My suggestions were also based on a novice open track driver. I should have inquired about him skill level. I apologize.

@RedHot18, go have fun and enjoy your car!

I agree with this. Unless he is very experienced and this is a track dedicated car, these settings are ideal. If he goes much past this it will be hard on the tires, unless he plans to return to factory settings for street driving.

[BMR Suspension]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You're proving that every car is different, and raising your peacock feathers about some other experience isn't going to change how this platform works best. Remember there is a lot of expertise out there for this platform that you're not aware of or privy to.

The HP Supplement Track alignment is close to spot-on for Novice to Intermediate drivers on most road courses. -1.5 camber in the front is simply too low unless you're strictly doing touring laps. This platform is also very sensitive to having too much toe-in. Anything more than 0.1° per side gives noticeable dynamic bump-steer and upsets the car. Personally I disagree with the GM "street" alignment recommendations as they over-toe the car and make it unstable with asymmetrical bumps. Assuming you're talking about 1/8" toe-in total at a 20" wheel rim (21.25"), that's about 0.17° per side, which is triple over what the car works well with. A 1/16" total toe-in is even a bit much on this platform.

I know you've worked hard to get where you're at, that's why you should be careful to not give stray advice. Peace.

I don't understand where the hostility is coming from. I apologize if you thought I was "raising my peacock feathers", but I think you took my comments the wrong way. I was simply quantifying that my recommendation has come from years of experience in setting up street and race cars, and two years of track experience and testing at multiple facilities with this platform.

As far as every car being different, I think it's more accurate to look at it as every driver is different (in this situation). And certainly every track is different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are implying that alignments specs are a one-size-fits-all type of thing. As I'm sure you're are aware, it isn't.

Here is the logic behind the recommendations I made.

Camber - While these cars probably do work very will with large amounts of negative camber (-2.0*+), in my experience, most novice and even intermediate drivers do not push the car hard enough to see the benefits of these types of camber settings. Over the course of all of our product testing, I have taken very accurate tire temps and pressure readings. This data is pretty black and white about where the alignment should be based on how hard the car is being driven and how much of the tire is being used. Of course other factors also come into play here, like spring rates and sway bar rates, but that is and entirely different conversation. The OP asked for camber settings that would help on track and not tear his tires up on the street. This is the basis of my opinion and recommendation. I have customers with -1.7 degrees of camber and they complain about uneven tire wear. As the OP becomes a better, more aggressive driver, his alignment needs will certainly change. Again, I apologize for assuming the OP is a novice driver, but this is the basis of my recommendation.

Caster - Making a recommendation of a caster change was my fault for not remembering these cars do not have that adjustability. I wish they did.

Toe - My toe recommendations are right inline with GM's recommendation for track day alignment. I recommended 1/16"-1/8". GM's recommendation is 0.1* +/-. 1/16" is 0.0625 and 1/8" is 0.1250. In my personal experience at Sebring (which has a very long, fast back straight) too little toe can cause the car to wander. At Daytona, you also have very long straights with a lot of speed. You are absolutely correct that too much toe will have negative effects on the hard and its handling, but personally, I have not seen these cars to be as sensitive to it as you claim. I'm not saying you're wrong, just simply stating that I have not experienced this, but our alignments have always been in the range I recommended.

All I want is people looking to have some fun to have the best experience possible and to understand why they need to make certain changed. There is a lot of bad information out there. I will never post anything without having a reason behind it. I am happy to discuss the topic at length if anyone would like to.

Thanks,

Pete

[Ryephile]

There's no hostility, just reality checking your recommendations. You have to admit once you drop things like "NASCAR crew chief" it bypasses talking about this car and starts bragging about yourself, which of course isn't relevant.

I can see where your error is regarding toe. 0.0625" = 1/16, which does not equal 0.1°, it equals 0.17°. This would be measuring with a wheel clamp alignment machine on a 20" wheel. In any regard, comparing the angle is more useful a comparison than some abstract inch measurement, you have to agree.

Your recommendations are not in-line with GM's Track day recommendations. Please look at the HP Supplement to verify, I linked it above. They say 0.1° total +/- 0.05°. They don't mention inches anywhere.

If you feel more toe is better, we'll have to agree to disagree. I suggest trying 0.05° per side for perspective. It really smooths out the car's behavior in bumpy stuff.

[BMR Suspension]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

There's no hostility, just reality checking your recommendations. You have to admit once you drop things like "NASCAR crew chief" it bypasses talking about this car and starts bragging about yourself, which of course isn't relevant.

I can see where your error is regarding toe. 0.0625" = 1/16, which does not equal 0.1°, it equals 0.17°. This would be measuring with a wheel clamp alignment machine on a 20" wheel. In any regard, comparing the angle is more useful a comparison than some abstract inch measurement, you have to agree.

Your recommendations are not in-line with GM's Track day recommendations. Please look at the HP Supplement to verify, I linked it above. They say 0.1° total +/- 0.05°. They don't mention inches anywhere.

If you feel more toe is better, we'll have to agree to disagree. I suggest trying 0.05° per side for perspective. It really smooths out the car's behavior in bumpy stuff.

Yes you are correct, I was looking at the measurements incorrectly. I apologize. If I go back and look at my alignment sheet I'm sure we are close to talking about the same amount of toe. We shoot for 1/16" toe in, which works very well for us. We also have an alignment shop that does race stuff and will align the car to exactly what we ask for.

I apologize for missing the boat on the toe conversation, we were talking about completely different forms of measurement.

[BMR Tech]

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455830

All answers should pretty well be covered here