[KingLT1]

This stuff isn't really rocket science folks...the Challenger sells because it has room. I see more Scat Pack Chargers around here then anything. People want family hauler performance vehicles because 2 seat cars have little to no room in a family for most. If I could only have one vehicle it wouldn't be a 6th gen Camaro. It's a toy car or a daily for the guy/gal that doesn't have kids or kids are all grown up.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Well, that is where just about everyone including GM is not getting it. They drive as good as any other car on the road today for the street, are more practical and have things people want. Most people don't care how fast a car will run at VIR or anywhere else. That means nothing going to the movies or on vacation. Say whatever you want ,but facts don't lie. Fiat is giving people what they want with an old design. I don't care two shits about how well a car goes around a road course ,and I'm not alone. It means nothing going down the highway on a Sunday afternoon. Fiat figured this out. I drove cars from the 60's, 70's. You want to talk about handling? Lol

These cars today are all good. Guys like you make it sound like sending anything other than a Camaro off into a corner will mean instant death. That just isn't so.

Nailed it. Theres so much chest thumping ("Me man - me drive v8. Me in higher tax bracket cause me drive 30k ss.") and closed mindedness ("Mustangs and Challengers are ugly and unreliable! Camaro is the only car on the planet!") here - granted I just bought a 2018 Camaro but I love the Challenger and Mustang as well. I am not and have never been a one brand nutswinger, and have zero interest in being a Track Star or participating in the Stop Light Grand Prix. Perhaps there are lots of other people that feel the same way, they just want something visually appealing.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

A tank?? Compared to what? Your Honda Civic. The 2017 have basically the same dimensions of the 1st and 2nd Gen camaro. Nobody wants a camaro the size of a Civic.

The one thing I'll say to that, and I'm certainly not advocating for this, but the Pinto-based Mustang II from '74-78 basically saved the Mustang. It was an awful car by any standard - by 1978 standards, 1998 standards, or 2018 standards. Until '77 it was only available with a 4 cylinder or V6. It had the same notorious gas tank as the Pinto. It was over a foot shorter and 500 lbs lighter than the '73. It was built cheap and light and was butt ugly.

But one of the highest selling model years in the 50+ year history of the Mustang was 1974 and it got Car and Driver's car of the year. From a financial standpoint it was just as much of a gold mine for Ford as the original '64. They couldn't build enough of them, even though it was 2/3rds the physical size of a 2nd gen Camaro and slow as molasses.

It was for all intents and purposes an econobox just like the Civic.

[SDG23]

I remember before buying my SS that the dealers I stopped at had the same basic Camaros, either fully optioned V6's or fully optioned V8's, there were no lesser optioned Camaros. I wanted a 1SS but I see places charging more for a V6 than a 1SS, which is sad.

I also asked about ordering a Camaro and the look I got was as if I had just greatly insulted their mother, I sensed they were put off that I didn't want one of their overpriced, over optioned Camaros.

But I will say that Chevy does pretty much ZERO advertising on the Camaro, I've never seen a commercial just about the Camaro, it's always lumped in with a fleet of other GM vehicles. Well that doesn't make it special, it makes it bland to blend in with the rest.

So I'd say that high prices, potentially bad dealer experiences and the complete lack of advertising sure hasn't helped the Camaro.

I liked the 5th Gen and the 6th Gen, styling wise, is not a complete departure, but it's smaller and more chiseled looking, it looks angrier and although I still like the 5th Gen, frankly it looks a bit dated and bloated compared to the 6th Gen.

I do think Chevy needs a few more sports car segments. When you look at the Focus RS, the Civic Type R and others, Chevy could use their Cruze or Sonic platform and one of their turbo 4's, put some great handling characteristics on it and it would compete very well. I know it's more money, but I'm not sure focusing on a turbo 4 Camaro is the thing to do, that segment is going to think the Camaro is too large of a platform, so put it on something smaller to appeal the crowd of people that aren't interested in turbo 4cyl Camaros. People think V8's when they think of Camaros, not turbo 4's, but the Cruze or Sonic on the other hand? Perfect platforms for a fast, nimble turbo 4.

[dohvb1]

Originally Posted by Axe

closed mindedness ("Mustangs and Challengers are ugly and unreliable! Camaro is the only car on the planet!") here - granted I just bought a 2018 Camaro but I love the Challenger and Mustang as well. I am not and have never been a one brand nutswinger,

I agree. I wanted a V-8(before they disappear) toy. I think the Challenger is a good looking car, I just like the Camaro better. The exhaust of the Mustang is heavenly, but I'm not a fan of how it looks. The Camaro nameplate and GM Bowtie had no influence on my purchase. It was the car I thought looked the best with the best performance within my budget. Honestly, if it was within my budget I would have got a used Jaguar F-Type V8 over my Camaro in a heartbeat.

[Trentelshark]

GM's marketing of the Camaro is horrible at best, I'd go so far as to say practically non-existent. I'm not sure how it is in the US but commercials here tend to talk about JD Power awards or practicality. Here's the awards we won, here's a Cruze, Equinox and Traverse and the Camaro MIGHT be in the shot at the end or entirely absent. And if it is present there is no excitement around it at all, it just sits there in the shot and is never called out. Hell even in the latest Ford commercial at least there's someone IN the car for an interior shot and mentions employee pricing on the Mustang. That's even more than I've seen on the Camaro period.

When I decided it was time to trade in the SS/TC in early 2017 I had never seen a single commercial or advertisement for the 6th gen Camaro. I knew there had been refreshes but had never actually taken the time to go to a dealer and look at the Camaro. For all I knew it was still the 5th gen design with some visual updates and that was it. I also didn't see them on the road often if at all (perhaps I didn't notice) but would always see the Challenger or Mustang driving by. There's simply more on the road.

Admittedly I don't tend to follow car news very closely once I purchase a vehicle so this could partially explain it. I tend to keep my vehicles for 10 years plus (yes all winter driven) so I tend to ignore anything else going on until it is time to shop around again. I don't need the added temptation .

But you would have thought at some point after the release of the 6th gen I would have seen a single ad from GM (or at least a memorable one) saying "hey check out the newly redesigned Camaro with all these features, etc" but to the best of my recollection that never happened.

[70chevelleSS]

While I can agree with you on the visibility issues, do you really feel cramped in the front seat of the Camaro? I honestly do not, I enjoy the cockpit type feel but I also feel that the front seats have plenty of room (although the rear seats are basically useless). I'm about 6'3 and 240 pounds, and i have plenty of headroom. I do not have a sunroof though. Just wondering what you find to be cramped for the driver or front passenger.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by Axe

Nailed it. Theres so much chest thumping ("Me man - me drive v8. Me in higher tax bracket cause me drive 30k ss.") and closed mindedness ("Mustangs and Challengers are ugly and unreliable! Camaro is the only car on the planet!") here - granted I just bought a 2018 Camaro but I love the Challenger and Mustang as well. I am not and have never been a one brand nutswinger, and have zero interest in being a Track Star or participating in the Stop Light Grand Prix. Perhaps there are lots of other people that feel the same way, they just want something visually appealing.

What it is about the Camaro that appealed to you? And which model did you purchase?

[gpskinzhut]

I don't find anything cramped about the Gen6 front seating. I'm pretty comfortable in it. There's more room in my Gen5 to manspread but that's really not that big a deal.

Challenger is the cheapest V8 entry into the segment, but the base R/T is a slug in every metric, not just through the corners. I'm curious to see what the sales breakdown is by trim level.

The Challenger always had a leg up on the competition with regard to practicality, space, and retro looks. None of those 3 items have helped it outsell its competition, however, as its consistently sold the worst of the 3 with the exception of a surge in the last couple years. That's not exactly what I'd call kicking ass. If Camaro had the same sales figures as the Challenger, nobody would claim it was kicking ass.

I highly doubt the reasons for Challenger's uptick in sales are as simple as any one thing, but I'd hazard a guess that pricing is the leading factor above the other examples sighted, otherwise those perceived benefits would have driven sales up long before the last couple/few years.

GM 'could' compete by offering, say, a low output V8 in an LS/LT with 18" wheels and AS 245's all round, single piston brakes, and squishy suspension, no flashy bits... speed limited and all and try and undercut the R/T by getting it a sub 30k tag. But what role would that serve? Compromised performance, increasing manufacturing costs... eh... doesn't make a lot of sense at this juncture IMO. Sounds backwards actually. Sort of like a jock tying his shoes together so the underachiever can keep up.

[brap999]

Originally Posted by Trentelshark

GM's marketing of the Camaro is horrible at best, I'd go so far as to say practically non-existent. I'm not sure how it is in the US but commercials here tend to talk about JD Power awards or practicality. Here's the awards we won, here's a Cruze, Equinox and Traverse and the Camaro MIGHT be in the shot at the end or entirely absent. And if it is present there is no excitement around it at all, it just sits there in the shot and is never called out. Hell even in the latest Ford commercial at least there's someone IN the car for an interior shot and mentions employee pricing on the Mustang. That's even more than I've seen on the Camaro period.

When I decided it was time to trade in the SS/TC in early 2017 I had never seen a single commercial or advertisement for the 6th gen Camaro. I knew there had been refreshes but had never actually taken the time to go to a dealer and look at the Camaro. For all I knew it was still the 5th gen design with some visual updates and that was it. I also didn't see them on the road often if at all (perhaps I didn't notice) but would always see the Challenger or Mustang driving by. There's simply more on the road.

Admittedly I don't tend to follow car news very closely once I purchase a vehicle so this could partially explain it. I tend to keep my vehicles for 10 years plus (yes all winter driven) so I tend to ignore anything else going on until it is time to shop around again. I don't need the added temptation .

But you would have thought at some point after the release of the 6th gen I would have seen a single ad from GM (or at least a memorable one) saying "hey check out the newly redesigned Camaro with all these features, etc" but to the best of my recollection that never happened.

Agreed. I had no idea the ZL1 existed in the 6th gen let alone a 1LE. I didn’t like the 5th gens and never thought about a 6th gen. The only way I discovered it was that I was watching youtube videos on Audi R8’s, Gallardos and a few other cars trying to decide what I wanted to buy (used), and I just happen to stumble onto a ZL1-1LE review. After watching it was I was sold and started calling dealerships in the area

If it wasn’t for the YouTube review there is 0 chance I would have ever explored the Camaro. GM needs to do a better job getting this car noticed by the masses. All my car buddies when they saw it didn’t know this existed either until I pulled up in it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

This stuff isn't really rocket science folks...the Challenger sells because it has room. I see more Scat Pack Chargers around here then anything. People want family hauler performance vehicles because 2 seat cars have little to no room in a family for most. If I could only have one vehicle it wouldn't be a 6th gen Camaro. It's a toy car or a daily for the guy/gal that doesn't have kids or kids are all grown up.

The Challenger isn't selling well. Its just managed to hold steady the volume that has until now been the bottom ended. Meanwhile the Mustang and Camaro have dropped off with the Camaro dropping significantly in Q1-Q2 2018.

These cars are all in trouble. Question is which manufactures are committed to continuing and the Challenger's futures is the most uncertain.

Retail ATP's 2018 Q1-Q2 (JDPin)
Camaro: $40,814
Challenger: $38,241 (-$2,573)
Mustang: $34,798 (-$6,016)

Retail Sales 2018 Q1-Q2
Mustang: 29,548
Challenger: 25,783 (-3,765)
Camaro: 24,809 (4,739)

Total Sales 2018 Q1-Q2
Mustang 42,428
Challenger 37,367 (-5,061)
Camaro 25,380 (-17,048)

Percentage of Total Sales that are Fleet/Rental 2018 Q1-Q2
Camaro 2.2%
Mustang 30.4% (+28.1%)
Challenger 31% (+28.8%)

Compared to 2107 totals

Retail ATP's 2017 (JDPin)
Camaro: $39,514
Challenger: $35,498 (-$4,016)
Mustang: $33,792 (-$5,722)

Retail Sales 2017
Camaro: 65,222
Mustang: 60,581 (-4641)
Challenger: 45,821 (-19,401)

Total Sales 2017
Mustang 81,866
Camaro 67,940 (-13,926)
Challenger 64,537 (-17,329)

Percentage of Total Sales that are Fleet/Rental 2017
Camaro 4%
Mustang 26% (+22%)
Challenger 29% (+25%)

Retail ATP's 2017 (JDPin)
Camaro: $39,514
Challenger: $35,498 (-$4,016)
Mustang: $33,792 (-$5,722)

Retail Sales 2017
Camaro: 65,222
Mustang: 60,581 (-4641)
Challenger: 45,821 (-19,401)

Total Sales 2017
Mustang 81,866
Camaro 67,940 (-13,926)
Challenger 64,537 (-17,329)

Percentage of Total Sales that are Fleet/Rental 2017
Camaro 4%
Mustang 26% (+22%)
Challenger 29% (+25%)

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Trentelshark

GM's marketing of the Camaro is horrible at best, I'd go so far as to say practically non-existent. I'm not sure how it is in the US but commercials here tend to talk about JD Power awards or practicality. Here's the awards we won, here's a Cruze, Equinox and Traverse and the Camaro MIGHT be in the shot at the end or entirely absent. And if it is present there is no excitement around it at all, it just sits there in the shot and is never called out. Hell even in the latest Ford commercial at least there's someone IN the car for an interior shot and mentions employee pricing on the Mustang. That's even more than I've seen on the Camaro period.

When I decided it was time to trade in the SS/TC in early 2017 I had never seen a single commercial or advertisement for the 6th gen Camaro. I knew there had been refreshes but had never actually taken the time to go to a dealer and look at the Camaro. For all I knew it was still the 5th gen design with some visual updates and that was it. I also didn't see them on the road often if at all (perhaps I didn't notice) but would always see the Challenger or Mustang driving by. There's simply more on the road.

Admittedly I don't tend to follow car news very closely once I purchase a vehicle so this could partially explain it. I tend to keep my vehicles for 10 years plus (yes all winter driven) so I tend to ignore anything else going on until it is time to shop around again. I don't need the added temptation .

But you would have thought at some point after the release of the 6th gen I would have seen a single ad from GM (or at least a memorable one) saying "hey check out the newly redesigned Camaro with all these features, etc" but to the best of my recollection that never happened.

Canada is especially bad for advertising - without closely following Chevrolet FB pages and groups, I would know nothing about the 6th gens either.

They don't advertise anywhere but social media - almost nothing at all, no advertised incentives (all you hear about is trucks and their very garbage equinix SUVs, maybe the odd Cruze) - nothing on the Camaro or Corvette. GM is the polar opposite of Dodge when it comes to their performance stuff.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

This stuff isn't really rocket science folks...the Challenger sells because it has room. I see more Scat Pack Chargers around here then anything. People want family hauler performance vehicles because 2 seat cars have little to no room in a family for most. If I could only have one vehicle it wouldn't be a 6th gen Camaro. It's a toy car or a daily for the guy/gal that doesn't have kids or kids are all grown up.

+1 (I know, I'm so old school) 5th gens were bigger and had a much more usable interior. The CA6 is essentially a Corvette with an almost usable back seat.

While the knock on the Challenger is it is a bit too big. Very noticeable when you drive all three.

The Mustang is the best seller and is just the right size. I have driven quite a few Mustangs. The best size compromise.

I think that and:

Poor visibility and even worse a very big well known Camaro reputation for bad visibility. But this did not seem to hold back 5th gen sales so much. It's something that might tip the scales for a CA6 buyer. The Mustang is only marginally better but has no rep for that fault.

Also many buyers do not appreciate a world class handing car. Good handling with good comfort is enough for most. So one of the best features of the Camaro goes mostly unappreciated.

Also performance to most buyers (by a lot) is measured 1/4 mile at a time. Here Chevy is in the game but misses a ton of cred by not bettering at least the slowest Hellcat with the ZL1. That lack of reputation just might follow the other Camaros down the line. I think people come in to see the big bad top dog Bad Kitty and find out they can afford one of the lesser Challengers that look almost just like it. No wonder there are like five Hellcat versions right now and a 392 wide body.

Of course the Mustang (currently) has nothing to compare with either top dog but they did get a lot pf play and showroom traffic with the GT350. The 1LE is invisible by comparison.

And if only Chevrolet built a world class Camaro interior. That could help drive sales.

And while I would love to have a Hellcat in my garage, but if I can only have one toy silly car, I have the best one for me. Thanks Chevy for building it!!

Now how do keep up with those pesky Hellcats in the 1/4? Any suggestions Chevy? We are all ears....

[cbr1100xx]

Having owned a '15 GT and a '17 SS, I can say for sure that as a daily driver the GT is more liveable. It's got way better visibility IMO and "almost" feels like a normal car in that respect. The Camaro feels like a compromise. As a weekend toy, it wouldn't matter to me but as a daily it might and does to many I'm sure. I think that's the biggest issue the Camaro has. Sure some say screw it and make it work but that isn't necessarily the majority.