ZL1-LSA-MR+LS7+Pedders Coilovers = Z28?

[2cnd chance]

Ford's engineers made a very capable car for $42K. I believe GM's team can do better for the same $42K. Do you? (open to all)

[Number 3]

Here is one of the conundrums of the Z28 discussion................how track worthy versus how road worthy should the car be.

Some on here want a "true" track car. Meaning they could care less who drives it on the street, who might actually want to drive it to work once in a while and who just wants one but would never take it on the track.

There are reasons why GM and the other OEMs don't just drop a car the way you and I can using Pedders or simply cutting a 1/4 turn of spring.

One the car will ride noticeably worse. So what you say. Well for one there isn't a J D Power survey for a specific model. It could make the Camaro numbers look worse for ride.

Second there are things that GM would like your Camaro to be able to drive over, through and about without dragging the bottom bits of your car.

Third, the car is much more likely to bottom out on large pot holes, rail road crossings, etc. This increases the loads the body and structural elements see and in really bad cases, can damage the car. GM doesn't want your car damaged on these things so ride height is higher than what you can do in the aftermarket.

And many of you still say "so what?".

Well the issue is Many, Most, Some and Few. Many of us want a Z28. Most of us want it to be a more track capable car. Some of us are willing to make trade offs for daily use in order to have better track performance. And a few would be willing to simply have a car that was reasonable to just drive to the track to avoid trailering it.

Who should GM make the Z28 for? The Many? or the Few? The few say "ME!!!!" But there in lies the problem Timmy, GM needs a business case and a cost. And few doesn't usually calculate out to a good business case "IF" you are hoping to be cheaper than a ZL1 and in the ball park of a Boss.

MR does two awesome things.

First, it offers real time damping based on road inputs. It is for all intense and purposes an "active" suspension. It senses what the car is doing and can adjust damping characteristics for compression and rebound based on how fast you are going, the steering input you are providing, throttle position, speed, gear, etc. Even on the ZR1 and just announced for the ZL1, launch control can actualy know when you are about to launch the car when the clutch is depressed, the brake is applied and the engine is being reved. The rear shocks then can be adjusted to provide higher compression damping which adds a bit of rear wheel load increasing traction. Sorry, Pete, an adjustable suspension doesn't do that.

Second, it can be adjusted to have multiple settings. A touring mode with softer settings and a competition mode which firms things up dramtically. Now a Pedders or other adjustable suspension can offer this as well, but you have to get the tools out and adjust each corner. The competitive mode is set up and optimized for some "general" conditions. It doesn't differentiate between one track to the other. It's the same setting. But it is noticeably more firm and agressive. Turn the switch and a reasonably comfortable car for driving to work or to the track now firms up dramatically. But it is not for a specific track.

That is where an adjustable suspension can have a big advantage. You can adjust spring pre load, compression and rebound damping all separately and you can even do it different front to rear, left to right to suit the track at that day and time. But here is the catch. How "MANY" will have the time and ability to go out and adjust their cars to this level? How many of you know how to do this, can do this and will go to the track and make these adjustments and then readjust them to more civil settings for the drive home? My suspicion is this falls into the few, not even some.

So MR gives you the best you can get without having the ability to adjust your suspension.

And this is what the Boss has. The ability to "set up" the car for Laguna Seca and get optimal results. It would be interesting to see the difference if they just ran it bone stock. But I suspect this is behind the Laguna Seca performance numbers touted for the Boss.

All I can say is that I have a Ducati 916, the track tool of choice of the mid and late 90's. Sadly it is now ART as even lowly 600's have long passed it by. It has all of the adjustability in the suspension you can get from Pedders. I've not touched in 15 years. For me, it is simply what it can do (could do in it's day) rather than what I can make it do.

I've got some news for most of us. If you can't drive a car at 9/10ths, and I mean a no Sh*t 9/10ths, you wouldn't notice the performance difference that can be gained by tweaking rebound damping one click or adding a full turn to the spring pre load. You might be able to learn it if you spend your weekends at the track like I do at the golf course. You may be a really good driver on the back roads. I generally consider myself in this regard. But going to a track is another thing all together. 9/10ths there means you working, not playing. It means you can turn off the traction control and active handling and scare your insurance agent. But if you are 9/10ths or less, an MR car would be just perfect for you to have a reallllly good experience at the track.

So for you, is there value in having a car with potential for greatness that you will never realize? I say, yes. That is what the Ducati does for me. It's not what I can do, it's what the machine is capable of.

But if you are GM, do you address the many? The many will want a car you can drive comfortably to the track, turn a switch to comp mode and go blast around the track and compare your own times as you progress your driving skills. A ZL1 will probably do this verrrrrrrrrry well.

Or if you are GM, do you address the few? The few will have their cars at the track every weekend they can. They will not only want to do their best, they'll want to beat the best while they are there. But for selling cars, you will depend soley on those that want to buy the car for what it can do, but probably what they themselves will never or rarely do................and be willing to make the tradeoffs for driving it to work.

These are the big questions.

[Russell James]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Ford's engineers made a very capable car for $42K. I believe GM's team can do better for the same $42K. Do you? (open to all)

Agree 100%. I think there are more than "a few" that would jump all over a Z28 in the low 40s that would compete with the Boss 302.

Make it a cross between the SS and ZL1, but get the price down by ditching the LSA and MR. Leave in all the beefed up ZL1 drivetrain parts - diff, axles, trans, clutch... Come up with a power increase for a NA version of the LS3, a little more cam, better exhaust manifolds ( similar to the Z06 manifolds or a factory shorty header)... should be easy to get another 25 hp out of the LS3. Manually adjustable shocks just like the Boss 302.

I think many would go for it. Tons of people love the SS, but are less than impressed with some of the fragile drivetrain bits. And while you're at it - improved oil pump, rockers, valve springs, 3 bolt the cam... would be welcome improvements to the LS3.

[2cnd chance]

Or the biz case can be made on the keeping the Camaro in first place sales. At almost 200,000 sold it's obvious that excitement must be maintained, but how? Ask Ford what did they do since sales were slowing? Add excitement, and they have. However it is more difficult to gain against a strong and leading competitor than to maintain your position. Special paint colors are cool, but adding real excitement to a line is adding more substance. Look at the press Ford got with and is still getting with the Boss. Again they are running up hill against the Camaro. (I'm sure a lot of pent up demand is still being filled because if the years the Camaro was missing). To again maintain momentum there must be more and more added to the line. I would guess the Camaro is paid for, so doing niche development must be possible, hence the ZL1. Ride the ZL1 wave, but have the next WOW item ready to follow. Fortunately the Camaro has more available to draw from...Enter the Z28. Playing around we have pulled together a possible "almost" (in the car biz) ready to go scenario for the Z28. Be "proactive" (I know it's hard for a BIG company to do). Keep your lead in the pony car wars. Keep engineering excitement, not just paint colors.

if this is incoherent I typed it on my iPhone.

I'm not saying don't turn a profit, you would. I remember reading the SS is more profitable by far than the V6. And the fact that the sales were SS heavy at first added to the profits. Another point would be; back to the pent up demand that was obviously heavy towards the V8 enthusiast. All businesses know their strength lies in getting their customer base to buy again. How do you do that? Just look to the electronics biz. They keep upgrading their systems to drive the consumer to purchase the next better thing. So keep it coming or sales will get stale.

BTW, I'd really like to buy a new 5Gen Z28, jus' to let ya know.

BTW, this thread has by far the most replies and should soon have the most views in the Z28 section. The title and content seem to be affecting quite a few.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Here is one of the conundrums of the Z28 discussion................how track worthy versus how road worthy should the car be.

Some on here want a "true" track car. Meaning they could care less who drives it on the street, who might actually want to drive it to work once in a while and who just wants one but would never take it on the track.

There are reasons why GM and the other OEMs don't just drop a car the way you and I can using Pedders or simply cutting a 1/4 turn of spring.

One the car will ride noticeably worse. So what you say. Well for one there isn't a J D Power survey for a specific model. It could make the Camaro numbers look worse for ride.

Second there are things that GM would like your Camaro to be able to drive over, through and about without dragging the bottom bits of your car.

Third, the car is much more likely to bottom out on large pot holes, rail road crossings, etc. This increases the loads the body and structural elements see and in really bad cases, can damage the car. GM doesn't want your car damaged on these things so ride height is higher than what you can do in the aftermarket.

And many of you still say "so what?".

Well the issue is Many, Most, Some and Few. Many of us want a Z28. Most of us want it to be a more track capable car. Some of us are willing to make trade offs for daily use in order to have better track performance. And a few would be willing to simply have a car that was reasonable to just drive to the track to avoid trailering it.

Who should GM make the Z28 for? The Many? or the Few? The few say "ME!!!!" But there in lies the problem Timmy, GM needs a business case and a cost. And few doesn't usually calculate out to a good business case "IF" you are hoping to be cheaper than a ZL1 and in the ball park of a Boss.

MR does two awesome things.

First, it offers real time damping based on road inputs. It is for all intense and purposes an "active" suspension. It senses what the car is doing and can adjust damping characteristics for compression and rebound based on how fast you are going, the steering input you are providing, throttle position, speed, gear, etc. Even on the ZR1 and just announced for the ZL1, launch control can actualy know when you are about to launch the car when the clutch is depressed, the brake is applied and the engine is being reved. The rear shocks then can be adjusted to provide higher compression damping which adds a bit of rear wheel load increasing traction. Sorry, Pete, an adjustable suspension doesn't do that.

Second, it can be adjusted to have multiple settings. A touring mode with softer settings and a competition mode which firms things up dramtically. Now a Pedders or other adjustable suspension can offer this as well, but you have to get the tools out and adjust each corner. The competitive mode is set up and optimized for some "general" conditions. It doesn't differentiate between one track to the other. It's the same setting. But it is noticeably more firm and agressive. Turn the switch and a reasonably comfortable car for driving to work or to the track now firms up dramatically. But it is not for a specific track.

That is where an adjustable suspension can have a big advantage. You can adjust spring pre load, compression and rebound damping all separately and you can even do it different front to rear, left to right to suit the track at that day and time. But here is the catch. How "MANY" will have the time and ability to go out and adjust their cars to this level? How many of you know how to do this, can do this and will go to the track and make these adjustments and then readjust them to more civil settings for the drive home? My suspicion is this falls into the few, not even some.

So MR gives you the best you can get without having the ability to adjust your suspension.

And this is what the Boss has. The ability to "set up" the car for Laguna Seca and get optimal results. It would be interesting to see the difference if they just ran it bone stock. But I suspect this is behind the Laguna Seca performance numbers touted for the Boss.

All I can say is that I have a Ducati 916, the track tool of choice of the mid and late 90's. Sadly it is now ART as even lowly 600's have long passed it by. It has all of the adjustability in the suspension you can get from Pedders. I've not touched in 15 years. For me, it is simply what it can do (could do in it's day) rather than what I can make it do.

I've got some news for most of us. If you can't drive a car at 9/10ths, and I mean a no Sh*t 9/10ths, you wouldn't notice the performance difference that can be gained by tweaking rebound damping one click or adding a full turn to the spring pre load. You might be able to learn it if you spend your weekends at the track like I do at the golf course. You may be a really good driver on the back roads. I generally consider myself in this regard. But going to a track is another thing all together. 9/10ths there means you working, not playing. It means you can turn off the traction control and active handling and scare your insurance agent. But if you are 9/10ths or less, an MR car would be just perfect for you to have a reallllly good experience at the track.

So for you, is there value in having a car with potential for greatness that you will never realize? I say, yes. That is what the Ducati does for me. It's not what I can do, it's what the machine is capable of.

But if you are GM, do you address the many? The many will want a car you can drive comfortably to the track, turn a switch to comp mode and go blast around the track and compare your own times as you progress your driving skills. A ZL1 will probably do this verrrrrrrrrry well.

Or if you are GM, do you address the few? The few will have their cars at the track every weekend they can. They will not only want to do their best, they'll want to beat the best while they are there. But for selling cars, you will depend soley on those that want to buy the car for what it can do, but probably what they themselves will never or rarely do................and be willing to make the tradeoffs for driving it to work.

These are the big questions.

Once again you have outdone yourself..... Thank you for taking the time to point out things that most people do not think of. I am going to digest your post for a few and then I will reply with my thoughts and opinions!

[TLSTWIN]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Here is one of the conundrums of the Z28 discussion................how track worthy versus how road worthy should the car be.

Some on here want a "true" track car. Meaning they could care less who drives it on the street, who might actually want to drive it to work once in a while and who just wants one but would never take it on the track.

There are reasons why GM and the other OEMs don't just drop a car the way you and I can using Pedders or simply cutting a 1/4 turn of spring.

One the car will ride noticeably worse. So what you say. Well for one there isn't a J D Power survey for a specific model. It could make the Camaro numbers look worse for ride.

Second there are things that GM would like your Camaro to be able to drive over, through and about without dragging the bottom bits of your car.

Third, the car is much more likely to bottom out on large pot holes, rail road crossings, etc. This increases the loads the body and structural elements see and in really bad cases, can damage the car. GM doesn't want your car damaged on these things so ride height is higher than what you can do in the aftermarket.

And many of you still say "so what?".

Well the issue is Many, Most, Some and Few. Many of us want a Z28. Most of us want it to be a more track capable car. Some of us are willing to make trade offs for daily use in order to have better track performance. And a few would be willing to simply have a car that was reasonable to just drive to the track to avoid trailering it.

Who should GM make the Z28 for? The Many? or the Few? The few say "ME!!!!" But there in lies the problem Timmy, GM needs a business case and a cost. And few doesn't usually calculate out to a good business case "IF" you are hoping to be cheaper than a ZL1 and in the ball park of a Boss.

MR does two awesome things.

First, it offers real time damping based on road inputs. It is for all intense and purposes an "active" suspension. It senses what the car is doing and can adjust damping characteristics for compression and rebound based on how fast you are going, the steering input you are providing, throttle position, speed, gear, etc. Even on the ZR1 and just announced for the ZL1, launch control can actualy know when you are about to launch the car when the clutch is depressed, the brake is applied and the engine is being reved. The rear shocks then can be adjusted to provide higher compression damping which adds a bit of rear wheel load increasing traction. Sorry, Pete, an adjustable suspension doesn't do that.

Second, it can be adjusted to have multiple settings. A touring mode with softer settings and a competition mode which firms things up dramtically. Now a Pedders or other adjustable suspension can offer this as well, but you have to get the tools out and adjust each corner. The competitive mode is set up and optimized for some "general" conditions. It doesn't differentiate between one track to the other. It's the same setting. But it is noticeably more firm and agressive. Turn the switch and a reasonably comfortable car for driving to work or to the track now firms up dramatically. But it is not for a specific track.

That is where an adjustable suspension can have a big advantage. You can adjust spring pre load, compression and rebound damping all separately and you can even do it different front to rear, left to right to suit the track at that day and time. But here is the catch. How "MANY" will have the time and ability to go out and adjust their cars to this level? How many of you know how to do this, can do this and will go to the track and make these adjustments and then readjust them to more civil settings for the drive home? My suspicion is this falls into the few, not even some.

So MR gives you the best you can get without having the ability to adjust your suspension.

And this is what the Boss has. The ability to "set up" the car for Laguna Seca and get optimal results. It would be interesting to see the difference if they just ran it bone stock. But I suspect this is behind the Laguna Seca performance numbers touted for the Boss.

All I can say is that I have a Ducati 916, the track tool of choice of the mid and late 90's. Sadly it is now ART as even lowly 600's have long passed it by. It has all of the adjustability in the suspension you can get from Pedders. I've not touched in 15 years. For me, it is simply what it can do (could do in it's day) rather than what I can make it do.

I've got some news for most of us. If you can't drive a car at 9/10ths, and I mean a no Sh*t 9/10ths, you wouldn't notice the performance difference that can be gained by tweaking rebound damping one click or adding a full turn to the spring pre load. You might be able to learn it if you spend your weekends at the track like I do at the golf course. You may be a really good driver on the back roads. I generally consider myself in this regard. But going to a track is another thing all together. 9/10ths there means you working, not playing. It means you can turn off the traction control and active handling and scare your insurance agent. But if you are 9/10ths or less, an MR car would be just perfect for you to have a reallllly good experience at the track.

So for you, is there value in having a car with potential for greatness that you will never realize? I say, yes. That is what the Ducati does for me. It's not what I can do, it's what the machine is capable of.

But if you are GM, do you address the many? The many will want a car you can drive comfortably to the track, turn a switch to comp mode and go blast around the track and compare your own times as you progress your driving skills. A ZL1 will probably do this verrrrrrrrrry well.

Or if you are GM, do you address the few? The few will have their cars at the track every weekend they can. They will not only want to do their best, they'll want to beat the best while they are there. But for selling cars, you will depend soley on those that want to buy the car for what it can do, but probably what they themselves will never or rarely do................and be willing to make the tradeoffs for driving it to work.

These are the big questions.

OUTSTANDING!

Thankyou...

My guess is MOST will not even take the time to read this post entirely... especially reading a couple responses after your post

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

OUTSTANDING!

Thankyou...

My guess is MOST will not even take the time to read this post entirely... especially reading a couple responses after your post

Hey..... I said I was digesting it before responding....

[TLSTWIN]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

Hey..... I said I was digesting it before responding....

LOL I didn't see your post when I started mine

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

LOL I didn't see your post when I started mine

[TLSTWIN]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

We hit the track with fluids and driver at 4,180 pounds in the Camaro. Same driver in the Mustang was 290 pounds lighter. Both cars were modified which you all know. We move the battery in the Mustang to the trunk for better balance.

BTW Pete, I am selling my 2500HD on Monday and hopefully doing bushings and coilovers in the near future with Rich

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

OUTSTANDING!

Thankyou...

My guess is MOST will not even take the time to read this post entirely... especially reading a couple responses after your post

Typically those following the Z28 thread are pretty intense which leads me to believe they will read it and the responses, and may even tend to respond themselves.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Number 3

First, it offers real time damping based on road inputs. It is for all intense and purposes an "active" suspension. It senses what the car is doing and can adjust damping characteristics for compression and rebound based on how fast you are going, the steering input you are providing, throttle position, speed, gear, etc. Even on the ZR1 and just announced for the ZL1, launch control can actually know when you are about to launch the car when the clutch is depressed, the brake is applied and the engine is being reved. The rear shocks then can be adjusted to provide higher compression damping which adds a bit of rear wheel load increasing traction. Sorry, Pete, an adjustable suspension doesn't do that.

Second, it can be adjusted to have multiple settings. A touring mode with softer settings and a competition mode which firms things up dramatically. Now a Pedders or other adjustable suspension can offer this as well, but you have to get the tools out and adjust each corner. The competitive mode is set up and optimized for some "general" conditions. It doesn't differentiate between one track to the other. It's the same setting. But it is noticeably more firm and aggressive. Turn the switch and a reasonably comfortable car for driving to work or to the track now firms up dramatically. But it is not for a specific track.

That is where an adjustable suspension can have a big advantage. You can adjust spring pre load, compression and rebound damping all separately and you can even do it different front to rear, left to right to suit the track at that day and time. So MR gives you the best you can get without having the ability to adjust your suspension.

I've got some news for most of us. If you can't drive a car at 9/10ths, and I mean a no Sh*t 9/10ths, you wouldn't notice the performance difference that can be gained by tweaking rebound damping one click or adding a full turn to the spring pre load. You might be able to learn it if you spend your weekends at the track like I do at the golf course. You may be a really good driver on the back roads. I generally consider myself in this regard. But going to a track is another thing all together. 9/10ths there means you working, not playing. It means you can turn off the traction control and active handling and scare your insurance agent. But if you are 9/10ths or less, an MR car would be just perfect for you to have a really good experience at the track.

My opinion of MR has not changed since my first drive of an HSV in AU and on premium GM performance cars soon to include the ZL1.

For most drivers and driving conditions the way the MR integrates into the stability system will make them faster around the track. Top tier drivers will do things with the car the MR and stability system won't like and will fight with the driver for control of the car.

On the Z28, I think a number of you have expressed interest in a more traditional suspension. Adjustable height suspensions create a nightmare for the MFG with crash testing and actual build. Another factor that has not been mentioned is volume. Using the MR system on BOTH Zs reduces development and production cost. If we have to accept MR on the Z28 to get it built, would it stop anyone from buying it?

[Russell James]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

For most drivers and driving conditions the way the MR integrates into the stability system will make them faster around the track. Top tier drivers will do things with the car the MR and stability system won't like and will fight with the driver for control of the car.

On the Z28, I think a number of you have expressed interest in a more traditional suspension. Adjustable height suspensions create a nightmare for the MFG with crash testing and actual build. Another factor that has not been mentioned is volume. Using the MR system on BOTH Zs reduces development and production cost. If we have to accept MR on the Z28 to get it built, would it stop anyone from buying it?

1 agree 100%. I have no interest in MR. Just give me a better tuned SS suspension. Fine tune the springs, bars, shocks, bushings... Don't drop it in the weeds. Current SS ride height is fine for me but what needs improving - it pushes like a dump truck, front clunks like a lumbar wagon, rear wheels hop like it's on basketballs.... all that can be really improved with fine tuning. And an engineering group willing to address the rediculous front clunking.

A friend of mine with a Vette with MR had all the shocks start leaking after warranty. Estimate to repair > $4000. No thanks. Not to mention the hit to the cars MSRP.

My thoughts of a Z28 would be a more better SS. Bring over some of the ZL1 improvements, but ditch the costly LSA and MR. When the sticker shock hits from the ZL1, I'd bet there will be quite the interest in something in between the SS and ZL1. Suspension and drivetrain improvements, dual mode exhaust, 3.73s - Vette GS approach. The Z06 and ZR1 and great, but the sticker price kills it for Joe blue collar. Check the sales of those two and the word dismal can be explained by one thing - price.

[LOWDOWN]

There are two realities, at least, at work here:

1) Can a "Z/28" be anything less, performance-wise, than a BOSS LS? I think "NOT!"

2) To make the "business case" do-able, what content is necessary to achieve 1) above, and at what price, assuming BOSS LS "performance" and number$ as your benchmark?

MANY will pay a premium for a better-balanced, better-handling car, and would be satisfied (if otherwise unknowing...) with only slightly more "go" than a 1SS...which gears alone would likely accomplish.

MOST would want some form of "distinctive appearance" to make them "instantly noticeable". "See what I bought? Its NOT just any ol' Camaro..."

SOME would want demonstrably improved performance/handling/stopping. After all, a "Zee" means something to them.

A FEW would want the "Zee" to be "all that it can be"...ultimate accelerative performance combined with handling/stopping beyond mere Camaros. A "track star hero". The absolute best "handler" available from Camaro...and from GM, in this Class. And those folks will "pay the price" for a well-scienced, Manufacturer-built and -backed version. For this reason alone, they have largely resisted Aftermarket efforts and are NOT yet predisposed to buy a ZL1. "It may be the most powerful, but is it the BEST for MY money?" And their definition of "best" is NOT alone determined by 1/4-mile runs... If it's the best available, at a competitive price, that GM offers, and is truly competitive, in performance and price, "where do I sign?"

Somewhere, on this Forum, "someone" suggested an LS7-engined 1SS with "supporting driveline" (read: brakes/diff/wheels/tires/tranny) was buildable for "low-mid 40s". Add MR (if that is what's required to "show tail" to the BOSS LS), and a grille/extractor hood/tasteful graphics for appearances' sake...voila! $47-and-change like the LS.

Can a ZL1 minus 50 hp (LS7 vs. LSA), minus 200 lb. (ditto, with content restriction), minus $5-7000 MRSP (again, content restricted from a "full load" ZL1) = BOSS Basher?

IS MR MANDATORY for this to happen? Costs/weight involved...

There is no doubt an LS7 in a Camaro will smoke a BOSS in a straight line (at least in my feeble mind). It is apparent the Vette GS has its hands full matching the BOSS LS in any measurement of performance, while using a hand-built dry-sumped Wixom LS3 and enjoying a Curb Weight advantage. A 450+ hp version of that engine would aid the Vette...but the Camaro must carry another 500 lb... The only "guarantee" for a 3800 Camaro to match power-to-weight with the 3631 lb. LS requires the weight disadvantage of the LSA, or the weight-and-handling-neutral addition of an LS7, as these are the only readily-available choices at this time sitting in GM Powertrain's vast arsenal of RPO'd engines...