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Old 03-11-2009, 05:10 PM   #1
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horsepower vs torque

i just found a really good explanation of the relationship between the two and which really wins races.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/general-ls...hp-torque.html


that page also has a link to a 1/4 mile time estimator (it puts the 5th gen LS3 @ 12.9)

http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/qua...it=Get+Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
What's the advantage of High revs with the same power?

http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/horsepower

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html
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Old 03-11-2009, 06:17 PM   #2
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Thanks Zebra that was a good read
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:58 PM   #3
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I wrote a 'beginners guide' a while ago (same title, but oddly a slightly different topic . . .)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
and before that, I created this thread: Whats the advantage of high revs with the same power?

Just a bit more supplementary info for those who are interested.
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:03 PM   #4
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OOOH, good read
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
I wrote a 'beginners guide' a while ago (same title, but oddly a slightly different topic . . .)


and before that, I created this thread: Whats the advantage of high revs with the same power?

Just a bit more supplementary info for those who are interested.
i understood that, but afterwards, my head
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:30 PM   #6
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ROTFLMAO
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:41 AM   #7
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
i just found a really good explanation of the relationship between the two and which really wins races.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/general-ls...hp-torque.html


that page also has a link to a 1/4 mile time estimator (it puts the 5th gen LS3 @ 12.9)

http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/qua...it=Get+Results
Thanks for sharing. It's always a good idea to help educate the masses on things that are commonly misunderstood.

BTW, did you include the weight of the driver along with the curb weight of the car when you arrived at that 12.9 number? I used the 3860 curb weight listed for the manual SS (426hp) and a driver weighing 140lbs (4000 total weight) and arrived at a 13.065

Using the same calculator, a GT500 (500hp) with a curb weight 3920 of plus the same 140lb driver (4060 total weight) gave me a 12.448

While there have been GT500's in stock form run those numbers, it is not the norm. I would hazard to say if the calculator is worth anything at all, very few SS Camaro's will be running 13-flat in stock form. Time will tell, I guess.

Last edited by garagelogic; 03-13-2009 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garagelogic View Post
Thanks for sharing. It's always a good idea to help educate the masses on things that are commonly misunderstood.

BTW, did you include the weight of the driver along with the curb weight of the car when you arrived at that 12.9 number? I used the 3860 curb weight listed for the manual SS (426hp) and a driver weighing 140lbs (4000 total weight) and arrived at a 13.065

Using the same calculator, a GT500 (500hp) with a curb weight 3920 of plus the same 140lb driver (4060 total weight) gave me a 12.448

While there have been GT500's in stock form run those numbers, it is not the norm. I would hazard to say if the calculator is worth anything at all, very few SS Camaro's will be running 13-flat in stock form. Time will tell, I guess.
good point! i just used curb weight. by the way, does curb weight include a tank of gas?

and that calculator is definitely just an approximator. get a good tail wind & a nice cool temp and you might could pull off high 12s
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Old 03-14-2009, 02:05 AM   #10
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http://craig.backfire.ca/pages/autos/horsepower
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Old 03-14-2009, 02:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
good link!

Quote:
The car with the V8 will be named Redneck, and the car with the 4 cylinder will be named Ricer. The V8 can rev to 6000RPM and produce a ton of torque, while 4 cylinder can to rev way up to 9000RPM and produce a fair bit of torque.
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Old 03-14-2009, 08:02 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra View Post
good point! i just used curb weight. by the way, does curb weight include a tank of gas?

and that calculator is definitely just an approximator. get a good tail wind & a nice cool temp and you might could pull off high 12s
Yes, as I understand it, the official curb weight number is a reflection of what the car would weigh with all available options installed and a full tank of fuel.

I have no doubt we will see instances where SS's are getting into the 12's. I think we will see evidence of SS's running in the mid-to-high 13's, too, due to factors such as track conditions, temps, driver error, etc.
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:44 PM   #13
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yeah. after driving slow cars all my life (with the exception of when i hit up used lots), i'm just happy with a 12-13 second car, period!
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Old 03-14-2009, 04:00 PM   #14
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very good read
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