BBK Shorty Header Dyno Test Today!!!

[Aaron1121]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Andy at ADM did it months ago and offers the Off Road pipes on his site that replace the factory cats and they dynoed 18 RWHP best I can recall.

Ted.

Thanks for the info!

That's good to know.

[2010 4 DW]

I had the JBA stainless Non-Catted mids on my 2010 Camaro and they were very nice and only cost me about $250.00 shipped.

DW

[mikepage0007]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

That is Correct, Zero Difference with ARH headers and ARH Cats ON or OFF.

would that still apply if you kept factory manifold [ INTO 3IN. MAGNAFLOW CAT BACK]and removed 1 cat from each side. having 2 instead of 4? reason i ask is , i have heard that you can obtain a heavy fuel smell with no cats... any truth...i was thinking about removing 2nd cat[ LOWER} and welding in small straight pipe in place of 2nd cat...would like to think that i,m doing a little bit green

[NinoSS]

Originally Posted by Aaron1121

I think the difference is the STOCK cats.

No offense to Ted or anyone else here, but I don't think the previous tests between ARH with no cats and ARH with high flow cats really says much. I've seen high flow cats that you can hold up see light through, and they don't really do anything.

I would really like to see someone just replace the STOCK cats with midpipes on a stock system with stock headers and do a before and after dyno.

My personal belief is that some shorty headers alone may give you a *couple* of HP. I also believe that on the longtube systems that 75% of the advertised gain is just from removing the cats (or replacing them with high flow cats), and the other 25% is the actual higher capacity on the longtubes and the associated tune....

None of the vendors would want to admit that though...... because they wouldn't sell as many headers...........

My ADM downpipes are going in in the morning. I will have a bone stock base line dyno, and post dyno done as well... I will start a new thread tomorrow...

[axis]

Originally Posted by Aaron1121

I think the difference is the STOCK cats.

No offense to Ted or anyone else here, but I don't think the previous tests between ARH with no cats and ARH with high flow cats really says much. I've seen high flow cats that you can hold up see light through, and they don't really do anything.

I would really like to see someone just replace the STOCK cats with midpipes on a stock system with stock headers and do a before and after dyno.

My personal belief is that some shorty headers alone may give you a *couple* of HP. I also believe that on the longtube systems that 75% of the advertised gain is just from removing the cats (or replacing them with high flow cats), and the other 25% is the actual higher capacity on the longtubes and the associated tune....

None of the vendors would want to admit that though...... because they wouldn't sell as many headers...........

That may be but if you look at the shorties, you'll see where they are a lacking. Look at the tubes going into the collector. They end abruptly and just curve into the collector. That KILLS flow, where the LT's smoothly transition into the collector. I'm sure the cats play a big part too though.

[BSPOT]

Ive got to say, i went a similar route - obviously starting off with the stock exhaust, getting a feel for the ride. At about 5000 miles i went with a JBA Midpipe (non-catted) and i gotta say i felt a loss of power in the lower RPM's, but plenty of strength at 4k plus. I purchased a pair of high flow cats from magnaflow (the car is my day driver and i couldnt take the smell, not to mention how loud it was) and the power felt equally divided between the lower and mid rpm range. I was going to go with shorties from JBA as a cherry on top, but like alot of you i cant find too many good reviews or write ups about them. Aside from the manufacturers claiming ridiculous gains. This thread all together may have scratched that thought - curious to see where the BBK reps are hiding.

[barrylnv]

JBAGreg - I follow that just fine. However, I think I and nearly all the users of this site feel that a manufacturer claiming say 18 HP with shorty header bolt-on ONLY and not having one independent shop come even close to reproducing that is what is bothering all of us. I did everything you said in the "above the line" part. I installed shorties, did a CAI, and cat-back. I got 18 RWHP. Did 5 dyno pulls to verify and that's all there was and honestly that was cherry picked. The maker of the shorties claimed 18 RWHP, the maker of the CAI claimed 14 RWHP, and the maker of the cat-back claimed 18-20 RWHP - EACH without ANY other mods OR tune. I realize you can't simply add gains, countless reasons that doesn't work. However, with "potential" gains claimed of 50-52 RWHP and I measured a cherry 18 and some others with similar configs back in last summer seeing pretty much exactly same as I did with similar or same parts combined, obviously that leaves us all pretty disappointed and with the conclusion (since there is no way on this green earth you're going to gain the rest of the 32-34 RWHP that I didn't get with just a tune) that the manufacturers are doing some fine cherry picking of dyno pulls and/or are outright blowing smoke. Obviously when the same car on the same dyno can change measurements by 10 or so RWHP just with temperature, and no independent labs performing or even witnessing the testing, there sure are some mightly funny smelly dyno plots / number claims on the vendor sections around here.

Your logic and information is sound and right and well presented. Still doesn't explain the dyno sheets and/or manufacturers have put out there that tuners and buyers can't reproduce with the actual bolt-ons.

[axis]

Greg:

I too understand what you're saying but at the end of the day, it looks like all BBK and most likely JBA can say is that their shorites will probably be 50 state legal.

They have yet to prove that they are better than the stock manifolds. When you post up that your headers will give a 20-30whp increase and have a pretty dyno graph as your proof, it looks bad when NO ONE can reproduce ANYTHING remotely close to that. It looks even worse when a shop shows a DECREASE in HP. No where does it say you need a tune to get those gains or you need a new catback to get them either. While they may very well be equal length, tuned length, and have a "firecone" built in, when you stop them abruptly and turn them into the collector, none of the above matters. You've just blown any gains you "might" have had prior to that.

I guess the LS based motor mannies are part of the 1% that are built better than shorties.

[barrylnv]

Originally Posted by axis

Greg:

I too understand what you're saying but at the end of the day, it looks like all BBK and most likely JBA can say is that their shorites will probably be 50 state legal.

They have yet to prove that they are better than the stock manifolds. When you post up that your headers will give a 20-30whp increase and have a pretty dyno graph as your proof, it looks bad when NO ONE can reproduce ANYTHING remotely close to that. It looks even worse when a shop shows a DECREASE in HP. No where does it say you need a tune to get those gains or you need a new catback to get them either. While they may very well be equal length, tuned length, and have a "firecone" built in, when you stop them abruptly and turn them into the collector, none of the above matters. You've just blown any gains you "might" have had prior to that.

I guess the LS based motor mannies are part of the 1% that are built better than shorties.

100% agree. NOBODY says you need to add a CAI, or tune, or whatever to realize their claimed gains. Just like NOBODY has come close to verify the gains of a lot of manufacturers on here, well that is anybody except the manufacturers themselves . My conclusion, until I see independent evidence, is just as axis stated - the LS3 manifolds are as good as or better than most shorties and that they only reason to buy them are for show in all 50 states. I'm seeing guys get close to the same 18 RWHP I originally had with just a CAI and tune. Would be much less money than I spent on that 18 RWHP!!!

[wbt]

Originally Posted by JBAGREG

I'm going to come to the rescue of our friends over at BBK.

There are several threads on Camaro5 that debate shorty
headers and question the value and HP per buck. In an effort
to help I will lay out some facts.

Will an improved exhaust manifold a.k.a. "Shorty Headers"
increase power and torque?

At the risk of oversimplification, your engine is simply an
air pump. The more efficiently that you can get air into
and out of your engine the more power and torque you will
enjoy. A shorty header has improved flow characteristics
over 99% of all OE exhaust manifolds. This in conjunction
with larger diameter primary tubes and design elements such
as "tuned length", "equal length" and/or "Firecone's" in
the collectors that help draw the exhaust into your exhaust
system all play a roll in the effectiveness of the header.

So without question, "Shorty Headers" will increase power and
torque.

How much?, Why are the Dyno Graphs all different, Why is this
brand showing more than that brand?

Bolting a header onto your engine is only part of the complete
package. If you install a shorty but do not allow the engine
to take in more air by adding a CAI, the performance of your
shorty header will be less than it is capable of. It gets even
better. If you bolt a header, and a CAI on your engine, the
stock exhaust system on your Camaro still impedes flow as a
result of a 2 factory pre-cats, 2 catalytic converters,
2 resonators, several crush points and 2 massive mufflers.

Are you following me here?

Once you add the Header and a CAI you can get more gains by
adding a Cat Back exhaust system which eliminates the resonators
and the stock mufflers. Now you are in the best case scenario
based on emissions compatibility.

However...
If you can have the Camaro now "tuned" to take advantage of
the new high flow and more efficient environment that these
components bring to your car you can increase the gains yet
again. Modifying fuel maps and changing timing via a tune
will yet again increase the gains that all of the above mods
have brought to the table.

Here is where we start to get into a gray area. So far, all
of the above is emissions compatible. This means that all of
your Camaro emissions systems are intact and IF your Shorty
Headers, CAI and Tuning device all are granted a CARB EO
number than the package is now 50 State Smog legal and
emissions compliant. The sum total of all of these mods is
a serious "seat of the pants" increase in power and torque
thorough the RPM range and takes you about as far as you
can go without high dollar engine mods or crossing the line
if legality.

There is a huge market for emissions compatible and emissions
compliant components. In California the laws are strict and
the fines are heavy if you find yourself on the wrong side of
the emissions battle. More and more states are following
California's lead. That's a fact!

Now for the Fun part... Everything below this line is intended
for OFF ROAD USE ONLY!

It's against the law to remove, modify or replace your Catalytic
Converters in ANY of the 50 states for up to 8 years unless
there is a failure in the Cat and then it must be replaced with
a certified OE Cat. This is a Federal Law. look it up.

With that said, You can add a set of high flow Cat pipes to
your shorty headers (PN 1812SDC) eliminating the Pre-Cats and
replacing the factory Cats with a high flow version. Tune again
and the gains jump up more. You can even install a non "Catted"
version (PN 1812SD) = More power.

However, if you are going to remove the Cats... for Off Road Use.
There is a wonderful variety of Long Tube Headers both with
and without Cats that will increase your gains yet again.

We will leave it at that. Always remember to check your local
laws. Mod your car to what ever level you are comfortable with.
When you have completed all your mods, finalize the build with
a custom tune so everything is safe and optimized.

No offense but there are no new revelations in your post. Most of us are seeing that the stock exhaust is very efficient on a near stock motor and no gains to be made replacing until supporting mods are added into the mix.

[paulunited]

Greg,
We would all Know the truth if you and some of the other makers of these shorties offer up a set for a test. I think we all know why only borla stepped up to the plate.Your quick to jump on here and defend your product but i doubt youll offer a set for such a test.Untill someone proves other wise ill go with what the op says is fact.

[BSPOT]

I want to help out as well. According to Greg and what is otherwise common knowledge with shorties, they are only as efficient as the system they are being applied to. I have JBA midpipes with high flow cats, deleted the resonators, Borla S-Type rear section, an X pipe, and CAI. I cant imagine how to make the car any more "shorty ready" than how it is now. Here are my numbers with the current set up and I will be be installing JBA shorties in the upcomming weeks and will post a before and after

[Doc]

Originally Posted by barrylnv

JBAGreg - I follow that just fine. However, I think I and nearly all the users of this site feel that a manufacturer claiming say 18 HP with shorty header bolt-on ONLY and not having one independent shop come even close to reproducing that is what is bothering all of us. I did everything you said in the "above the line" part. I installed shorties, did a CAI, and cat-back. I got 18 RWHP. Did 5 dyno pulls to verify and that's all there was and honestly that was cherry picked. The maker of the shorties claimed 18 RWHP, the maker of the CAI claimed 14 RWHP, and the maker of the cat-back claimed 18-20 RWHP - EACH without ANY other mods OR tune. I realize you can't simply add gains, countless reasons that doesn't work. However, with "potential" gains claimed of 50-52 RWHP and I measured a cherry 18 and some others with similar configs back in last summer seeing pretty much exactly same as I did with similar or same parts combined, obviously that leaves us all pretty disappointed and with the conclusion (since there is no way on this green earth you're going to gain the rest of the 32-34 RWHP that I didn't get with just a tune) that the manufacturers are doing some fine cherry picking of dyno pulls and/or are outright blowing smoke. Obviously when the same car on the same dyno can change measurements by 10 or so RWHP just with temperature, and no independent labs performing or even witnessing the testing, there sure are some mightly funny smelly dyno plots / number claims on the vendor sections around here.

Your logic and information is sound and right and well presented. Still doesn't explain the dyno sheets and/or manufacturers have put out there that tuners and buyers can't reproduce with the actual bolt-ons.

This post highlights one of the common misunderstandings in the potential gains of adding performance parts. In the above post the individual performance part companies are claiming gains of anywhere from 14-18 hp with no other mods. What they're all telling you is 14-18 hp is the range of all the gain that's available in the intake/exhaust system whether you improve intake and/or exhaust. As the poster of the above comment states, the gains the individual components claim to provide with no other mods do not and cannot add up.

For many of you who already know this you can skip the part below, but for those new to modding read on.

Think of it as a quantity of items; if I take 14 of 18 then there's only 4 left for the others to take because there's only 18 available period. As each company is telling you, with no other mods (i.e. nobody else taking some of it, meaning if all the 18 is available), our part will recover x amount of that. As you've seen in some cases a combination of "performance" parts can actually lower performance because each part assumes it's modifying a stock configuration. If other addons have already modified the performance, it changes the conditions for everything else.

As someone has said, an engine is essentially an air pump; the intake and exhaust systems are supposed to aid in that process by getting enough air, fast enough into the engine, and then allowing that air to get back out fast enough to clear the combustion chamber for the next charge of air coming in.

In the old days when manufacturers did a so-so job of making intakes and exhaust systems, it was pretty easy to boost the power by adding better carburetors and headers. Those days are gone. Manufacturers today are doing a MUCH better job of engines and related systems; and combined with computer control, today's engines are producing amazing performance and doing it quite reliably over longer periods of time than the old engines ever could. Modifying one of today's systems is not the "easy gain" it used to be. Based on what virtually all the addon companies are saying, it looks like about 12-20 hp is all that's left to recover in the new Camaro V8's. It's not particularly cheap to recover it either.

The 3 areas that can be done without going into the engine itself are intake (cold air intake), exhaust manifold (headers whether short or long) and exhaust pipes whether catback or axleback. The goal is to improve the amount, quality and velocity of air going in, and getting that air out through the exhaust system quickly and completely.

A cold air intake (CAI) can easily improve the amount and quality (colder air is more dense than warm air) but velocity is definitely a function of design which includes flow path and diameter of the pipe. Jannetty did an excellent test of almost all the available CAI's at the time and based on his report I chose the Cold Air Inductions CAI which looks great and I've not had a single issue with. It works as advertised.

I've not gone with headers because long tubes are not legal in California; and I've always known that shorties tend to just be expensive noise makers on a V8 because the actual power gains are so minimal you can't feel any difference. They're just louder than the stock manifold in most cases. I'm still looking at shorties in case somebody comes up with a great design that actually makes a worthwhile difference but so far that hasn't happened that I've seen.

For exhaust I chose a 3" Zoomer's catback system. I went with the 3" pipe even though I'm not planning on doing heavy engine mods with big hp gains because I liked the deeper sound of the 3" pipes compared to 2 1/2" pipes. I expect between the intake and catback I probably gained somewhere between the known range of 12-18 hp. I don't expect adding shorty headers would double that; if anything they might actually cost power because the stock engine doesn't pump enough air fast enough to keep up the velocity in an intake/exhaust system with that much flow.

You might read or hear about "back pressure" and wonder why that's important as people discuss the difference between 1 3/4 vs 1 7/8 or 2" headers, and 2 1/2 vs 3" exhaust pipes. You hear about "high flow" cats vs stock or no cats. What difference does any of that make and how do you know what to go with?

THE ENTIRE PURPOSE of intake and exhaust is to get as much air stuffed into the cylinder and combustion chamber as possible so when the gas is sprayed in and ignited, it produces the biggest bang; then afterwards you need to get that exploded mixture completely out of the chamber so the next clean charge can get in. The velocity of the air coming in through the intake pushes air into the cylinder combined with the vacuum of the cylinder as the intake valve opens up to "pull" the air being pushed. The moment the intake valve closes, everything that's inside is then compressed as the piston moves upward. You want good unrestricted flow of air coming in so the engine isn't being starved for air. A well designed cold air intake aids in this process but it can only do so much; don't expect huge gains here because the Chevy engineers did a pretty good job of the factory intake. But there is some power to recover and a CAI is relatively inexpensive and easy to add.

The engine itself will determine how much air it can pull in by the size of the valves, how long they are open (this is what a cam controls) and how big the cylinder chamber is. You might wonder if you just leave the intake valve area completely open to the air if that would be the best; no it wouldn't. An intake system helps focus and direct airflow directly to the intake valve opening so it helps to "push" or focus air into the opening when the valve opens; the vacuum inside the chamber as the piston is moving down helps pull that air in. If there's no velocity of air on the outside then the vacuum effect has to do all the work; it's not as efficient. This is why having too big an intake pipe can cost power because the engine isn't moving enough air to maintain the velocity of that much in the pipe. Modify the engine so that it CAN move more air and that's a different story. This is why engine modders HAVE to modify the intake and exhaust to get maximum power.

If you haven't modded the engine internals, then all you're really doing is trying to improve the efficiency of the intake and exhaust to tweak the factory design a little; and on today's modern systems, "tweak a little" is all you can do. Don't expect 50 hp+ gains by just adding intake and exhaust like the old days; today's manufacturers haven't left that much performance to gain in their designs. They're doing a pretty good job as tests show on an unmodified engine. Less than 10% is available to recover it seems, not the 20-25% like the old days.

Headers and exhaust systems ideally should create a velocity vacuum that pulls air as the piston is pushing that air out through the exhaust valve to aid in clearing the chamber. If the pipes are too big or the system is designed to pull a greater velocity of air than the engine is pumping out, then you can lose power because the piston is doing all the work pushing only without any real pulling assist from the headers/exhaust. The trick is to create and maintain the vacuum effect through length of pipe, diameter of pipe, collector and how well that air flows through the cats and mufflers. This is why smaller diameter pipe headers can actually recover more power than larger diameter on an unmodified engine because the airflow they're designed to pull more closely matches what the engine is pushing out.

It's too complicated to go into here but the combination of air pressure pulses from each cylinder moving through the pipes can create vacuum at the cylinder exhaust port if designed properly. But that design assumes a STOCK configuration in most cases; change the stock configuration and that changes everything else.

If the manufacturer claims "adding my headers will gain 18 hp", and the CAI manufacturer claims "adding my CAI will gain 18 hp" and the catback exhaust manufacturer claims "adding my catback will gain 15 hp" etc., and they all show graphs and charts to prove their claim, understand that each of those are assuming nothing else has been changed; i.e. no other addon has recovered that power already. They don't add up nor do intake and exhaust actually "add" power; they simply help to recover the power that engine can produce that's being lost through various inefficiencies. Once an addon has recovered most of what could be recovered, other addons don't have much if anything left to recover so they won't make much of a difference. All these addon systems are just replacing factory systems and are affecting the same thing; airflow into and out of the engine, so don't expect miracle gains in power by buying and bolting on multiple systems because the engine itself can only use so much of what they do.

The only way to truly add power is to modify the engine itself, add forced induction, or change the power of the fuel mix by adding nitrous. Once you do any of those, the intake and exhaust should be changed to match the new abilities of the engine.

Wow... another one of my "short" posts lol I hope it was of some value though to those looking at all this stuff for the first time.

[Padre]

Stirring the pot, bumping an old thread.



19.26 BHP gains with just the addition of JBA shorty headers.

Discussion in my build Journal: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=128997&page=3

Padre