IF THEY BUILD THEM WILL YOU BUY THEM?

[Mythic]

We have a lot of long open roads, the primary build direction for american cars has always seemed to be big straight-line power. Cornering and handling has always seemed to take a back seat to everything else.

If I had to order how I believed cars were designed, it would be:
Exterior styling
power
interior styling
interior comfort
ride quality
handling

Handling is the #1 thing the european car mags, shows and comentators knock us on.

If I had to choose between 2 cars, 1 that had 500hp and 1 that had 400hp, but the 400hp car could pull .95g+ on the skid pad and didn't crush my spine on our forever being repaired roads, that would be my choice.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

And the 2075 Corvette Mk II Hovercraft will still utilize transverse leafsprings, somehow. Simply to piss Jeremy Clarkson III off on Top Gear.

[The_Blur]

I'm okay with following the Challenger out of the factory and passing it on my own. When you start out ahead, you tend to forget that others will try to catch you. There will be some loyal Mustang drivers slapping on every mod they can to catch us, and I'll be damned if they do. I'm going to rock the meanest exhaust with the coldest intake and the highest rated pistons to get ahead of that Challenger. I'll do it at all costs so that I can be top dog, even if my car wasn't when I got it. I like being the underdog that whoops on someone ahead of me.

[Design1stCode2nd]

Gas will hit $6 a gallon and it will beover. Get your 8's while you can I'm guessing.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

my quote about "forget all you know about engines" -- is very misunderstood and I need to clarify.......

I made that statement when people thought we'd put an LS2 or a Z06 engine in the Camaro...........my point was: The LS2 is an old engine -- we have new stuff that you haven't heard about --- (remember -- this quote was a while ago!) --

I was NOT referring to Turbo Charged 4 cylinder engines!!!!!!!

I am a V8 guy -- I am NOT trying to sell you on a perspective............other than:
>Camaro will be class leading

>It will be a car you can be proud to own.................

Thanks for clarifying those earlier statements which I misinterpreted. In a public forum, it is easy to do and especially when very word you say for example is read and being deciphered by those few of us interested in the new Camaro and any little tidbit of info you are allowed to leak out no matter how cryptic can and will be scrutinized by each of us.

What I understand from what you have just said above...

0) I was NOT referring to Turbo Charged 4 cylinder engines-

Were you then referring to Turbocharged 6 cylinder engines or some new type of V8 with a super/turbo charger?

1) Camaro will be class leading.

In what categories will it be class leading? Price performance? Being the fastest under a certain price point? Ride/handling?

2) It will be a car you can be proud to own.

I might have to pre-order one without giving it a test drive if I risk having to wait another year to buy one so I feel a lot better hearing this statement.


As for Mythic's comments above about what you place on top of a list when buying a car..

If I had to order how I believed cars were designed, it would be:
(since I am looking at both the Challenger and Camaro as the two, I will place whom I think has the advantage)

1) Exterior styling -Camaro concept wins, however I saw both Bumblebee and Challenger at a Miami autoshow and the Challenger isn't far behind. If the production Camaro strays too far from the concepts dimensions and looks, it may put the challenger ahead in the actual looks dept.

2) power - No information on camaro's engine's however 600HP HEMI future Challenger SRT8 will be hard to beat in a straight line.

3) handling -I will place my money on the Camaro for being lighter and being tuned and tested at Nürburgring.

4) interior styling- Camaro has the edge from the concepts I have seen.

5) ride quality- Challenger - I have to believe that the Challenger will handle the bumps on the road better simply because it weighs a lot more and can have that 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis feel to it.

6) interior comfort- I would also have to say the Dodge Challenger would have the advantage on this simply for having more room and more cushion in the seats as well as the ride quality adding to the comfort.. Rear leg room and having a third middle seat adds tremendous comfort to the rear passengers.

Using these standards above, the Challenger wins 3 out of 2 with one missing, however since I placed exterior styling on top and we don't have the engine information on the number 2 spot, the Camaro can easily take the lead in my mind or tie.


Since I don't know how comfortable the Camaro will be compared to the Dodge Challenger, I'm hoping to be able to sit in both before making a decision and definitely test drive both. However at the moment, if that 600HP SRT8 Dodge Challenger comes out before the first Top Dog Camaro, It'll be hard to wait longer for it. The current SRT8 sold out too quickly for me before I could make up my mind, but now I will be glad I waited if a 600HP beast will come out with the same price as the original SRT8 was earlier this year.

In either case, I might end up buying both cars in one way shape or form. One for me and one for my wife if she wants to part with her Pontiac G6.. Markups at well may play a bigger role if I see one of these companies is trying to charge way over MSRP.. Overall, I will keep visiting this site and learn as much as I can about each of these cars I am interested in and hopefully get to know some of you guys in the process..

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

Gas will hit $6 a gallon and it will beover. Get your 8's while you can I'm guessing.

Hopefully at that point the top dog will still be available and worked on for us enthusiasts to buy. Since there will still be those of us interested in power/performance over fuel efficiency, and bragging rights in magazines does generate a lot of interest in a vehicle, I don't see it being "the end" of the muscle car if gas hits $6 a gallon.

[Mythic]

my comments werent directed toward any of the models individually, or what I would place as my priority for bying a car. It is reponse to the comments above mine. It is a critique of how I believe american car makers have gone about in the design of new models. I believe that generally speaking the specific handling performance of american cars has not been a high priority on development.

This is where the european and pacific rim makers have traditionally been superior. American cars have rarely been short in the engine department. Having awesome power and a great 0-60 time is fine, but if you have to come to a stop everytime you want to corner, you'll lose on the track.

[ralniv]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

OK --- I'll admit that it's been a long day and I'm tired -- perhaps I'm misunderstanding you ---

Please explain that sentence so that I understand --

The gist is that Americans brought us high powered cars that couldn't handle very well. The Europeans brought us great handling at a price (ala Porsche, BMW, etc). The Japanese brought us great handling at an affordable price (ala Acura, Subaru, etc). The late model Mustangs were a step in the right direction, but don't provide the performance (power and handling) to make those WRX STi drivers think twice before lining up. The 5th gen Camaro appears poised to be the first American car to do it all and to do it American-style (i.e. with a sensual sounding V8). This prospect is exciting to me.

Wow, I went off the deep end explaining that sentence.

BTW, thanks for providing the clarification on your previous "forget what you know..." comments. I was growing tired of hearing speculation about diesels and 4-bangers. I look forward to seeing the new technologies brought to bear on the next Gen V8. Hopefully something beyond high pressure DI and cylinder de-activation.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Supermans

Thanks for clarifying those earlier statements which I misinterpreted. In a public forum, it is easy to do and especially when very word you say for example is read and being deciphered by those few of us interested in the new Camaro and any little tidbit of info you are allowed to leak out no matter how cryptic can and will be scrutinized by each of us.

What I understand from what you have just said above...

0) I was NOT referring to Turbo Charged 4 cylinder engines-

Were you then referring to Turbocharged 6 cylinder engines or some new type of V8 with a super/turbo charger?

He can't tell us because he has a high-profile job that he has to protect. All we need to know is that GM is ahead of the game, meaning that GM may have new engines or technology that has not been released or published. Being a V8 guy, he may be referring to new technology regarding the V8 engine lineup.

1) Camaro will be class leading.

In what categories will it be class leading? Price performance? Being the fastest under a certain price point? Ride/handling?

The number one priorities of GM right now are performance and perception. They need to beat the competition with power and with a good image. I guarantee you the horsepower per dollar ratio will be phenomenal. Keep the faith.

2) It will be a car you can be proud to own.

I might have to pre-order one without giving it a test drive if I risk having to wait another year to buy one so I feel a lot better hearing this statement.

Be careful getting a car without a test drive. Be even more careful getting one of the first off the assembly line. Expect a few unique warranty kinks over the first couple of months of production. Every car has these as a consequence of mass production and unpredicted problems. Despite this, GM is doing everything possible to make our Camaro perfect.

As for Mythic's comments above about what you place on top of a list when buying a car..

If I had to order how I believed cars were designed, it would be:
(since I am looking at both the Challenger and Camaro as the two, I will place whom I think has the advantage)

1) Exterior styling -Camaro concept wins, however I saw both Bumblebee and Challenger at a Miami autoshow and the Challenger isn't far behind. If the production Camaro strays too far from the concepts dimensions and looks, it may put the challenger ahead in the actual looks dept.

Appearance is a very important aspect of any automobile. I want to look good in my ride. The Challenger is hot and so is the Camaro. Being a Chevy guy, I'm biased toward the Camaro anyway. The real tipping point, though, is performance. I want my Camaro to weigh significantly less than the Challenger to compensate for the power gap.

2) power - No information on camaro's engine's however 600HP HEMI future Challenger SRT8 will be hard to beat in a straight line.

I'm not scared. Chevy will react with something unearthly to counteract the SRT8. Even if they don't, I'll be modifying my Camaro over time to make sure it competes above its class.

3) handling -I will place my money on the Camaro for being lighter and being tuned and tested at Nürburgring.

I strongly agree. I can't wait for suspension specs.

4) interior styling- Camaro has the edge from the concepts I have seen.

The interior is so sexy, I had to wear a condom to look at the spy shots.

5) ride quality- Challenger - I have to believe that the Challenger will handle the bumps on the road better simply because it weighs a lot more and can have that 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis feel to it.

It has to ride like a Camaro. That being said, a little roughness is a good thing. Teeth-chattering while driving is not okay. GM will find a good balance.

6) interior comfort- I would also have to say the Dodge Challenger would have the advantage on this simply for having more room and more cushion in the seats as well as the ride quality adding to the comfort.. Rear leg room and having a third middle seat adds tremendous comfort to the rear passengers.

It has to be like a Camaro. I expect some tight spaces, but those bucket seats better be comfortable. That is a big deal for me.

My comments are in bold above.

[cz]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

Gas will hit $6 a gallon and it will beover. Get your 8's while you can I'm guessing.

+10

i agree with him everone is talking about engines but what everone is not thinking about is fuel. if these engines that all of u r talking about runs on gas the we r going to be in trouble. i dont know if yal r rich but im not. i love v8 but if the gas prices continue rise i will have 2 go with what i can afford, weither it b a v8, v6, 4 cyc or hell a 2 cyc if they make it