NEW GM: WHAT ABOUT THE RULES OF FREE ENTREPRISE?

[arozar]

Originally Posted by dbotsfordtat

Why I pay taxes and taxes pay for his education, some of his healthcare, and you get a nice child tax credit each year from my tax dollars. We are social creatures, the rugged individual is a Hollywood myth. I bet you have benefited from somebody elses taxes many times over today, starting with the nice paved roads you drive on. Maybe we should all build our own roads instead of stealing money from people that don't own cars?

Trust me I pay my fair share too, but your taxes don't pay for his education, or health care my pay check does. I understand we need to pay taxes, and the Feds have some role in our lives, but IMO they have crossed the line.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

If the gov hadn't given them that money then GM would be just that much further in debt.

Not to say that in hind sight it would have been better for GM to file last year, before the loans.... But I'm not sure that they would be able to continue producing cars back then

I'm guessing, but I think the loans they got early on are allowing them to maneuver the bankruptcy process while continuing to produce cars and earn revenue...

My guess.

I did not support the current Government takeover in its current state which not only was to preserve the UAW, but to take away all current and future litigation's on GM vehicles that have legitimate issue that caused peoples deaths because of failure. When asbestos companies went bankrupt, money was set aside for litigation and compensation for families affected. Not in this current Chapter 11. This is a huge problem in my opinion because of how anti-consumer it is. Not to mention the decision that was made on behalf of the current GM bond-holders.

Originally Posted by arozar

So its better for my three year old to be in debt (the tax payer)? WTF!!

Apparently so in order to keep the UAW as number two majority holder behind the Government and create anti-consumer laws.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

You should be a little more carefule how you quote me.

read my reply in context to the post I was answering from Diddiyo.

You might find that you and I actually agree.

I said that in hind sight it may have been better for GM to go bankrupt a year ago...

Throttle back a bit..

Back then, were you in favor of the 10 billion loan or for the bankruptcy to restructure the UAW?
Do you agree the Government takeover should have happened this time when it did with all the current writings in the law or would you rather have had less of a concession with the UAW and more with the bond-holders?

Originally Posted by arozar

Hey, I'm not trying to piss you off, but I was screaming for this bankruptcy long ago. I don't know when bankruptcy was turned into such a bad thing, many companies have gone in and out, with out bailouts and survived. I think for the long run, it would be best for GM to go belly up, good execs build a new company with out the UAW and the Government. That would be the way it would have been done pre-1930, before the progressive movement started taking roots. I would much rather go through the great depression x10 now, so my kids and grand kids don't have too. But most people seem to want there kids to deal with our pain.

I hear ya however GTHAVIT is a moderator that is following very strict forum rules which forbid any anti-Goverment political talk at this time. We all have high emotions because of what is happening all around us and at the moment it feels like there is nothing we can do about it. We just have to pray.. peace

[MerF]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Lives in Belgium...

Todd says "WE DONT HAVE LOWERCASE LETTERS IN BELGIUM!!eleven!"

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Supermans

I did not support the current Government takeover in its current state which not only was to preserve the UAW, but to take away all current and future litigation's on GM vehicles that have legitimate issue that caused peoples deaths because of failure. When asbestos companies went bankrupt, money was set aside for litigation and compensation for families affected. Not in this current Chapter 11. This is a huge problem in my opinion because of how anti-consumer it is. Not to mention the decision that was made on behalf of the current GM bond-holders.

What on earth do you mean?

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bes...ies.sue.gm.cnn

[Shadowmind]

Whew....

This is whatcha get when your emotions talk before your brain fully understands what its saying.

Gov is strictly doing a structured Bankruptcy to save us all from sitting in a bread line. If this was 1932, we'd all be in a heap of shite. 25% unemployment rate, with another 50% working at 1/4 of their wage from the previous decade.

Yeah... I REALLY wanted to understand how that era felt... NOT.

I for one am very happy Obama is trying to sort this all out.

Besides, Im making hand over fist on the stock market these days. Gotta love single day volatility.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Shadowmind

Whew....

This is whatcha get when your emotions talk before your brain fully understands what its saying.

Gov is strictly doing a structured Bankruptcy to save us all from sitting in a bread line. If this was 1932, we'd all be in a heap of shite. 25% unemployment rate, with another 50% working at 1/4 of their wage from the previous decade.

Yeah... I REALLY wanted to understand how that era felt... NOT.

I for one am very happy Obama is trying to sort this all out.

Besides, Im making hand over fist on the stock market these days. Gotta love single day volatility.

This is a good era compared to back then. We need to remember that.

Also, someone lock up this thread. I would really appreciate it.

[CurtG]

Originally Posted by GatorBlue371

Gov. Is just looking to save a ton of jobs and keep the economy from getting worse. If GM had 300 employees it wouldnt be getting so much special attention. The Gov. is looking out for its own (the country's) best interest.

If your looking for a job thats safe from all the ups and downs of the market work in something important like Public safety. It doesn't pay as good as those jobs in the auto industry but guess what? I am not worried about losing my job. Can't happen. The Govt shouldn't be protecting anyone from losing their jobs. Its basically spitting in anyones face that chooses job security over making more money at a time like this. If we want a free market and capitalism then let shit hit the fan when the corps get to greedy. Its a cycle and it will always happen again eventually. Then things will get better and be good again for a while before it tanks again.

[arozar]

Originally Posted by CurtG

If your looking for a job thats safe from all the ups and downs of the market work in something important like Public safety. It doesn't pay as good as those jobs in the auto industry but guess what? I am not worried about losing my job. Can't happen. The Govt shouldn't be protecting anyone from losing their jobs. Its basically spitting in anyones face that chooses job security over making more money at a time like this. If we want a free market and capitalism then let shit hit the fan when the corps get to greedy. Its a cycle and it will always happen again eventually. Then things will get better and be good again for a while before it tanks again.

[Camaro_Corvette]

GM will be better, faster, and stronger after it restructures. I can't wait

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Also, someone lock up this thread. I would really appreciate it.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Hylton

What on earth do you mean?



http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bes...ies.sue.gm.cnn

It's not also current lawsuits in litigation but it includes excluding any future ones as well from people who currently own GM vehicles who would have legitimate claims.

http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2009/06/0...ts-against-gm/


GM’s Bankruptcy: What Happens to People Who Had Lawsuits Against GM?

By Jodi Xu

In the midst of General Motors’s bankruptcy case, another group says it is being left out in the cold.

This time it is a group of about 300 people who have sued the auto maker over catastrophic injuries or lost family members in crashes they say were caused by a design defect in various GM vehicles. In bankruptcy, all such suits are stayed and the claims are lumped in with all other unsecured creditors, making it unlikely these people will collect any money from the company, unless a judge orders otherwise.

Deal Journal talked to Larry Coben, Chairman of the Ad Hoc Committee of Consumer Victims of General Motors and Barry Bressler, Counsel to the Ad Hoc Committee of Consumer Victims of General Motors. The Attorneys represent the 300 plaintiffs with lawsuits or settlements pending from the car company. It also represents 160 people with cases or settlements against Chrysler.

Deal Journal: Who are your clients and how much are they seeking?
Barry Bressler: Most of the plaintiffs are severely injured as the result of design defects in GM cars. Many lost their limbs, suffer from brain damage or are paralyzed. Medical bills for paralyzed victims can easily go over a million dollars. The estimated aggregate value of damages being sought by the 300 plaintiffs is about $1.25 billion.

DJ: What are the plaintiffs asking for?
Larry Coben: The plaintiffs are hoping to recover whatever the law permits. What they would like is to their “day in court,” in the community where the victims lived and where the vehicles were sold. They want to be able to go to the jury and ask the jury to decide whether or not their injuries and millions of dollars of medical expenses should be recouped from GM.

DJ: Where are the cases standing, and what does the Committee want to accomplish?
Coben: GM cases are in all different states of litigation, though the vast majority are waiting to be heard and now are stayed by the bankruptcy filing. A few cases have gone to trials and have been awarded damages. But GM is appealing for those cases. And the victims will probably end up getting nothing as the government allows the company to shed its liabilities. We have been putting individual cases together. By doing that, we hope the strength of the numbers will lead the Obama administration to recognize that the impact on the individual Americans are horrible in terms of their injuries. Consumers of GM shouldn’t be ignored like those in Chrysler’s bankruptcy.

DJ: What happened in the Chrysler bankruptcy?
Bressler: Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli said in a testimony a few days ago that the auto company is likely to merge from bankruptcy protection, but the victims will likely get zero. The Ad Hoc Committee of Chrysler Victims estimated the 160 claims it had at around $600 million. The amount on Chrysler’s balance sheet of tort claims was about $615 million. Chrysler’s chief financial officer, Ronald Kulka, conceded it had been paying out approximately $250 million a year in settlements and verdicts on such claims. Kulka also confirmed that the old Chrysler didn’t demand that the new Chrysler to assume product liability or buy retroactive insurance.

DJ: What are the major concerns?
Coben: The plaintiffs are fighting against the Treasury department. The government can decide whatever it wants to do. The Obama administration allows GM to transfer all the good assets over to the “new GM” but leave liabilities behind. For the new GM, the government will honor warranties to encourage sales, which is a nice thing to do. But there will be no warranties for people who will get injured in the future. That’s the government’s decision and GM basically doesn’t have much say in it.
Bressler: If people have no rights to collect compensations for injuries, they are less likely to buy the cars.

DJ: What will be the impact of the case?
Coben: A bankruptcy like this destroys the rights of victims and deprives the rights of each State. Injured consumers are not the only victims here. Medical systems have laid out money, too. Each state, like New York, Pennsylvania or California, will lose the money they have laid out.

DJ: What is the Committee’s next step?
Coben: My feeling is that these consumers were victimized once, and they will be victimized the second time. Tomorrow, the Senate Commerce Committee will have hearings on the bankruptcies for both GM and Chrysler. I hope our concerns will be addressed in the hearings. Ten GM victim families will be there hoping to be heard. In the meantime, we’ll proceed with Chrysler’s appeal.

[bobby35ny]

Funniest part of all this is that the Messiah says the goverment will NOT run GM. But the goverment will have a say on the board appointees. sooooooooooooooooooo SLICK!!

-Bobby

[GatorBlue371]

Originally Posted by diddiyo

but wasn't that why they were pumping billions into GM for half a year already? to save them from going bankrupt in order to save jobs etc? everybody was like "ooooh we can't let them go bankrupt!!!" and now all of a sudden bankruptcy is the right thing to do?!

i really don't get it. what was all the money good for?

Uhh... Yea? duh. Why else would they do it? the US gov. doesnt exactly have the surplus to go throwing money around for the hell of it.

The fact that they are now going bankrupt just means that they mind as well have done that from the begining, but now it is seen as inevidable. Obviously people hoped they could have done without, but at this stage it is seen as the only good option left.

Originally Posted by arozar

I call BS, they saw and opportunity to take over and took it. Plane as day, they nationalized it, even Hugo Chavez likes this move.

http://www.reuters.com/article/Obama...dChannel=10441

AH!!!! And Cheney drove the plane into the twin towers!!!


The Government is out to get us!!!








Ill tell you what, my guess is that if the Government was in the buisness of taking over car companies, they'd pick one that made money.

Originally Posted by CurtG

If your looking for a job thats safe from all the ups and downs of the market work in something important like Public safety. It doesn't pay as good as those jobs in the auto industry but guess what? I am not worried about losing my job. Can't happen. The Govt shouldn't be protecting anyone from losing their jobs. Its basically spitting in anyones face that chooses job security over making more money at a time like this. If we want a free market and capitalism then let shit hit the fan when the corps get to greedy. Its a cycle and it will always happen again eventually. Then things will get better and be good again for a while before it tanks again.

skipped econ didn't you?



Its true that in a free market you cant be protecting jobs, but then again, this isnt a free market. It was founded as such, but our country has grown soft with regulatory government agencies. Nor is it a traditional democracy. Only in the Democracy of America can Al Gore get more votes but George Bush take office.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by arozar

Hey, I'm not trying to piss you off, but I was screaming for this bankruptcy long ago. I don't know when bankruptcy was turned into such a bad thing, many companies have gone in and out, with out bailouts and survived. I think for the long run, it would be best for GM to go belly up, good execs build a new company with out the UAW and the Government. That would be the way it would have been done pre-1930, before the progressive movement started taking roots. I would much rather go through the great depression x10 now, so my kids and grand kids don't have too. But most people seem to want there kids to deal with our pain.

You think the pre-1930's were some sort of golden age of business?? Those were some some of the most currupt times this country has ever seen.