[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

Where's the "I really like button" for posts?

Martinjlm on Camaro6 is the equivalent of having Jesus show up at your bible study. Pull up a chair, be quiet and listen.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You just cant understand that the Vette and the Mustang are not competitors, have not been since probably the 60s. One is a muscle/sport car the other is a lightweight mid engine exotic. The Camaro and the Challenger are the Mustang's competitors, the fact that many reviews say it can compete with the likes of a Porsche or Corvette is a testament of how good these pony cars have become, or how the once huge gap between the two has disappeared.

What are you even talking about dude? I never said they were competitors. They aren't. And it wouldn't be fair to the Mustang if they were. Because there is no NA Mustang capable of beating a NA Corvette at anything stock for stock. And there is no factory FI Mustang that can beat a factory FI Corvette at anything. The only time a Mustang can beat a Corvette at anything is, in this situation, when the Mustang has FI and a huge gap in power against a NA Corvette. And even then there is no guarantee. I'm the one who has been saying that the GT500 should be against the ZL1 and the only reason why they put it against the C8 is so it can win something against something.

And the point of my comment was that these days just beating a Corvette or simply getting compared to a Vette, ANY Vette, is an achievement. Your last sentence proves it. "the fact that many reviews say it can compete with the likes of a Porsche or Corvette is a testament of how good these pony cars have become, or how the once huge gap between the two has disappeared."
It is a 760 HP supercharged $75K Mustang being compared to a 495 HP NA $65K Corvette and you think that is something to brag about. Let me put it this way. It is the only Mustang that is capable of beating the bottom of the barrel Corvette at anything and it still lost at 3 out of 4 comparisons. You're sitting here trying to make it sound like just any Mustang is competing against Corvettes. What would happen if we put the 526 HP NA GT350R with a $75K MSRP price tag up against the 495 HP C8 Z51 with a $65K MSRP price tag? I mean, since Mustangs are competing with COrvettes now, is this a fair comparison? It costs more. It has more HP. Who would win? Would it be by a small gap or a large one?

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

I never debated anything about the SS1LE with you, stop lying and trying to nut hug other people to act like they are backing you up.

WTF are you talking about? You're not even following the same conversation bro.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

As I have said before when comparing cars MSRP to MSRP is still the best way to go. There are just way to many variables when talking about price YOU paid vs price OTHERS paid. I get what you are saying but just for the sake of comparing cars I think its easier to talk MSRP to MSRP.

MSRP to MSRP is best when comparing and judging cars off their features and performance. However when discussing what you can buy for the same price, and when one car has significant markups consistently attached, THEN you have to consider what you'll actually pay for the car. I've said before that MSRP means nothing if you can't get the car at that price. And when it is $10K more expensive, then a car that has an actual MSRP $10K more expensive would offer more in the way of options and features.

At $74K we can compare the performance of the Base GT500 to the ZLE. At $94K we can compare the performance of the CF GT500 to the Z06. But once you throw a $10K markup on the GT500 then you have to look at what you'll get for $84K out of a competing car with no markups. CHances are the differences will be staggering.

Also, like I said before, MSRP to MSRP, which would you rather have between the GT350R and the Base GT500?

Originally Posted by shaffe

That's the crazy part is it's not really that limited(R and CFTP are limited touch on that later). Someone posted the build counts, and yeah there were more ZL1s built than GT350s but it wasn't some insane difference, it wasn't like there was 10,000 ZL1s to 1K GT350s and even in the fifth gen it's not like there was a huge gap in production between GT500 and ZL1

A track focused car is something everyone says they want then when it comes out its hard to find homes for it. See 5th gen Z/28 They made 500 or so first year, and some fetched markup prices some at MSRP. Then made too many the second year and had to heavily discount them to move them. GM originally planned to limit the ZLE, and then decided not to. And what do you see now, they sit on lots and need discounts to move them. Point is building a track focused car and finding the right number to build is really tough. I think that is the reason Ford limits R and CFTP production is they are trying to find the sweet spot of cars made and not having to discount them.

But then the dealers get super greedy because its rare and people are stupid enough to pay it so we are back at square one and who the hell knows lol.

They are limited enough that demand is high for them. And they are limited enough that the Base is being marked up to the MSRP of the CF if not higher.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

MSRP to MSRP is best when comparing and judging cars off their features and performance. However when discussing what you can buy for the same price, and when one car has significant markups consistently attached, THEN you have to consider what you'll actually pay for the car. I've said before that MSRP means nothing if you can't get the car at that price. And when it is $10K more expensive, then a car that has an actual MSRP $10K more expensive would offer more in the way of options and features.

Agreed that is the most logical way to look at it.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

At $74K we can compare the performance of the Base GT500 to the ZLE. At $94K we can compare the performance of the CF GT500 to the Z06. But once you throw a $10K markup on the GT500 then you have to look at what you'll get for $84K out of a competing car with no markups. CHances are the differences will be staggering.
.

Wouldn't fault anyone for looking at it that way just based on price. I think I would look more to what each car is equipped with to compare them but I totally get your line of thinking. that's essential what MT did, did it based on price.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Also, like I said before, MSRP to MSRP, which would you rather have between the GT350R and the Base GT500?


They are limited enough that demand is high for them. And they are limited enough that the Base is being marked up to the MSRP of the CF if not higher.

As I said, probably GT500 but at that dollar amount I would rather have a Corvette lol.

That's the thing though, these first are limited because they just started building and shipping them. All cars are going to be limited when that is the case.

People think that the GT350 and GT500 are super limited but when you look at the build counts its in line with other high performance pony cars. Maybe not as many ZL1s but its not like there's gigantic gap and its not like its capped at only X amount per year(R and CFTP are different cases) People think they aren't going to get another chance to buy one and I think that started with the rumor that the 07GT500 was going to be a 2 or 3 year run and look what happened it went on for 7 model years.

[13vertss]

In my area, there are about 12 used GT350 for sale. Most in the $40k range and all but one is under 8000 miles. So for all those who needed to have them are sitting trying to get sold. If any paid ADM, they are loosing there shirt. The GT500 may fair better being a auto, but it would need to sit and have very low miles on it. Any gt350 with normal or high miles, are in the $30k range. These are big losses for those who say there value will stay high. It only stays high if its parked.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Totally and not saying Martin is wrong. Just I think Shelby name now is more of a marketing ploy since all the cars are built in house by Ford Performance



LOL

I mean on the MSRP to MSRP thing he is not wrong, but the poster he quoted was directly referring to the deal they got vs MSRP so thats where the difference of 25K was

Agreed on both, I was just saying I agree with your view of Fords involement with modern-day Shelbys.

As for newmoon, not saying he was necessarily wrong on that one, just his pattern if and when proven wrong lol.. not a bad strategy actually lol

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I've said the same over on C6G. Many times.

Don't get me wrong, the C8 team isn't losing sleep over GT500, but they are also not letting it out of their sight. Primary competitors are clearly Porsche / Ferrari / McLaren. But Jaguar F-Type, Shelby GT500, Mercedes AMG GT and Nissan GTR are all in the "second ring" of competitors on the landscape. All of them would like to punch upward to compete with Z06 / ZR1, just like Corvette for years has had to punch upward to hit 911 / 458 / 488 / 570s / 720s.

Competitor Intel isn't just about who you are targeting, it's also about who is targeting you.

I understand that the Corvette team may be keeping their eye on the Shelby but are they approaching the R&D for new models based on the Shelby. Going by your analogy that Shelby and Corvette have always been direct a competitor you would think they would. I would think they are focusing their R&D on European models, and could care less what a Mustang is doing as long as it doesn't surprisingly embarrass them

Again if Shelby is directly competing with Corvette do you think making the decision to challenge it with a 4200 lb chassis was a great idea or does it make much more sense that this platform is targeting similar Camaro and Challenger models.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I understand that the Corvette team may be keeping their eye on the Shelby but are they approaching the R&D for new models based on the Shelby. Going by your analogy that Shelby and Corvette have always been direct a competitor you would think they would. I would think they are focusing their R&D on European models, and could care less what a Mustang is doing as long as it doesn't surprisingly embarrass them

Again if Shelby is directly competing with Corvette do you think making the decision to challenge it with a 4200 lb chassis was a great idea or does it make much more sense that this platform is targeting similar Camaro and Challenger models.

You make it sound like they had a choice, as if they had anything but the S550 to work with.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I've said the same over on C6G. Many times.

Don't get me wrong, the C8 team isn't losing sleep over GT500, but they are also not letting it out of their sight. Primary competitors are clearly Porsche / Ferrari / McLaren. But Jaguar F-Type, Shelby GT500, Mercedes AMG GT and Nissan GTR are all in the "second ring" of competitors on the landscape. All of them would like to punch upward to compete with Z06 / ZR1, just like Corvette for years has had to punch upward to hit 911 / 458 / 488 / 570s / 720s.

Competitor Intel isn't just about who you are targeting, it's also about who is targeting you.

Originally Posted by newmoon

I understand that the Corvette team may be keeping their eye on the Shelby but are they approaching the R&D for new models based on the Shelby. Going by your analogy that Shelby and Corvette have always been direct a competitor you would think they would. I would think they are focusing their R&D on European models, and could care less what a Mustang is doing as long as it doesn't surprisingly embarrass them

Again if Shelby is directly competing with Corvette do you think making the decision to challenge it with a 4200 lb chassis was a great idea or does it make much more sense that this platform is targeting similar Camaro and Challenger models.

He already addressed what "level" of competitor GM gives to "Shelby's" when approaching performance criteria for a Corvette...see bolded.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You make it sound like they had a choice, as if they had anything but the S550 to work with.

This ^ They didn't have a choice had to work with what they had

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

He already addressed what "level" of competitor GM gives to "Shelby's" when approaching performance criteria for a Corvette...see bolded.

What he said ^ it gets consideration but not the primary focus.


Keep it civil around fellas don't want to come back and have 50 pages to read because vacation starts now!

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

He already addressed what "level" of competitor GM gives to "Shelby's" when approaching performance criteria for a Corvette...see bolded.

I see it but I just think that any reference that the 5th or 6th Gen Shelby sees the Corvette as a direct competitor or Corvette sees the Shelby is misleading at best. The only thing I will give you is they are similar in price.

[rocket403]

In the early 60's Ford brought Shelby in to get back at Ferrari and turn around their GT40 program after they asked Shelby to turn their mundane 6cyl Mustang into something more than it was. Shelby took it to SCCA championships over the Vette. The GT500 was never a direct competitor to the Vette but mags would always put the biggest of Ford to the biggest Chevy.

The Camaro is the direct competition too the Mustang today but Camaro is not the top that Chevy has to offer so again we have top vs top comparison even if they really are not focused to compete against the other.

Question is Chevy going to make any changes with Camaro the platform is tight so they could leave it alone and add more engine to put the Camaro back on top, but Chevy has it's top car and has always made sure that nothing else would step on the Vette's toes.

I always wondered what was said when Buick and Pontiac had the faster cars and did anyone loose their job when the Vette was dethroned by the GN or Firebird.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Martinjlm on Camaro6 is the equivalent of having Jesus show up at your bible study. Pull up a chair, be quiet and listen.

Dude....put down the pipe! I just have a half decent memory and the ability to recall history. The other one freakin' made history....literally.

But I appreciate the compliment.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I see it but I just think that any reference that the 5th or 6th Gen Shelby sees the Corvette as a direct competitor or Corvette sees the Shelby is misleading at best. The only thing I will give you is they are similar in price.

To be clear, you aren't giving me anything - just clarifying what Martin said.

You're right the 1LT Z51 is 7K cheaper than the GT500...if that's in the realm of similar.