Do you really want a Boss Killer, aka Z28???

[Rocky918]

Originally Posted by thePill

I would expect a full sways, stiff dampers, lowering springs and maybe an answer to the giant "L' link the SS has. The IRS system would need some looking into..

what do you mean by "L" link? and I figure teh ZL-1 will be a much smoother and crisper (meaning less body roll) ride than the SS from the factory.. so with that MRC system and me adding on sway bars, I think I can have similar handling to something like a nissan 370 z?

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by thePill

It is a nice start, they have to watch the weight though. The suspension is usually the first place weight gain occurs in road racing cars. Even light weight components still settle even as the suspension is the last place you want to truly shed weight. GM said:
The front and rear dampers shouldn't see a weight gain. The stabilizer bars WILL be very heavy compared to the current SS and the 20 inch wheels, who knows, this is usually where we would need to regain our weight loss back after we add heavy suspension components. I'm afraid that all the FE4 package will do for the SS is add weight but attempt to eliminate body roll. This is what the Z28 will need no doubt, but weight loss will come from the rest of the car first. The repositioning of the shock mounts are a very good move, geometry experiments won't result in any weight gain (Edit: The shock mounts will not be moved outward, the rear stabilizer bar is repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. Sorry for that) . I will pull up an SS rear suspension layout and take a look.

Any weight added will be very low to the ground, this will be a benefit. Plus the weight should be minimal.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Rocky918

personally, i still feel like the ZL-1 will suffer from body roll and wheel hop somewhat... my first suspension mod will probably be better sway bars

the new suspension, rearend, and axles should definately help quite a bit.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Any weight added will be very low to the ground, this will be a benefit. Plus the weight should be minimal.

Oh yeah, I wasn't saying that those upgrades would put the FE4 Camaro into another weight class, just not to expect the same weight gain the 4SS will take on for the Z28. I can see the 4SS gaining about the same weight as the 2010 GT Track Pack did or maybe even the Boss 302 itself. The Z28 would have to "give a penny, take a penny" as weight is concerned. The Boss had some heavy suspension upgrades applied to the car and quite a few as well. GM could possibly learn something here and stay completely flush with the SS curb weight if they play it right.

Advantage here would be that every Camaro comes with god awful 20" wheels. Just reducing the standard wheel size to a 19" could be a nice chunk of weight. In fact, lightweight wheels would be way more of an advantage for the Z28 than the Boss 302 just because of the unsprung weight between the two. As long as GM stays close to the SS's weight, they wouldn't need to opt for the big brake kits that the ZL1 and the CTS-V uses. Those brakes are just extra mass, even heavier than the 14" SS rotors regardless of the two-piece nomenclature. Having the little extra weight in the SS will be a decent trade off and as you said, that weight comes close to the center of gravity. The Z28 should already have a build plan that defeats that weight gain.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Rocky918

personally, i still feel like the ZL-1 will suffer from body roll and wheel hop somewhat... my first suspension mod will probably be better sway bars

All I can say is you might just want to wait and see on that one. Just sayin'..............that's all...............unless 0 body roll is what you are after.

Originally Posted by thePill

Its hard to eliminate body roll when you will have 4100+lbs and maintain ride comfort. The SS and in with the Z28, 3800lbs can be manageable. Wheel hop can be an attribute of unsprung weight but can be remedied with some control arms and other suspension upgrades. The Z28 will be all about high revolutions, balance, endurance, flat cornering and nimble handling at the expense of regular people comforts. I would expect a full sways, stiff dampers, lowering springs and maybe an answer to the giant "L' link the SS has. The IRS system would need some looking into..

You say it like there is one. Hope springs eternal.

[Fightinfire921]

Originally Posted by Number 3

All I can say is you might just want to wait and see on that one. Just sayin'..............that's all...............unless 0 body roll is what you are after.



You say it like there is one. Hope springs eternal.

Why is it that every time you post I hurry to read it?

I guess it's the hope the word will soon be out.

Please don't put the ZL1 hood on the new Z/28.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You say it like there is one. Hope springs eternal.

I think I say this almost everytime I reply to you. We both know that the topic of this very thread is on the table right now. The questions are just the five "W's" and the "H"

Team Camaro's slogan of "Keep the Faith" is appropriate... But you can keep your faith... Now its time for action. So, with the help of some of the more engineering inclined Camaro enthusiast, we are bench engineering the Z28, a little piece at a time. I know you can't answer this but... since Ford Racing engineered/released the Boss 302 and Team Camaro decided to go with ZL1 instead... isn't the team happy that Ford made that move that shifted the nameplates? In my opinion, Ford's move saved you guys from mistakenly naming the superchargered LSA equipped ZL1. In my opinion, its time to build the Z28.... Is team Camaro lookiing over all our Z28 threads?(you can answer that one at least) We are putting some good stuff in there and it would be nice to have a little feedback from the development guys. Reality check at least every once in a while. Or are you guys taking every word I type and adding it into your shell downstairs?

[thePill]

......continued

Hey Number 3, Stevenson Motorsports and Mitchum Motorsports need a hand over there in Grand Am. Turner, Rum Bum and Fall-line are trying to push us out. Give them guys some factory support man.

[Monte Mac]

Originally Posted by Toyaholic

The Z-28 should be a little more cost effective. The ZL1 is expected to be $60k. Nice ride, I would love one.... But that's a chunk of change!

Give us track handling, power and a reasonable price! Oh, yeah... and that sexy Camaro styling.

Yeah! What he said!

[nasa.zl1]

Excellent points The Pill.

It has been too long, z28 potential buyers deserve some info on the z28 like WHEN and WHAT PERFORMANCE TO EXPECT. They are going to lose us. Ford comes out with model after model but we get one future car and one we have no ideal.


[B][/B]

Originally Posted by thePill

I think I say this almost everytime I reply to you. We both know that the topic of this very thread is on the table right now. The questions are just the five "W's" and the "H"

Team Camaro's slogan of "Keep the Faith" is appropriate... But you can keep your faith... Now its time for action. So, with the help of some of the more engineering inclined Camaro enthusiast, we are bench engineering the Z28, a little piece at a time. I know you can't answer this but... since Ford Racing engineered/released the Boss 302 and Team Camaro decided to go with ZL1 instead... isn't the team happy that Ford made that move that shifted the nameplates? In my opinion, Ford's move saved you guys from mistakenly naming the superchargered LSA equipped ZL1. In my opinion, its time to build the Z28.... Is team Camaro lookiing over all our Z28 threads?(you can answer that one at least) We are putting some good stuff in there and it would be nice to have a little feedback from the development guys. Reality check at least every once in a while. Or are you guys taking every word I type and adding it into your shell downstairs?

[nasa.zl1]

The Pill, are getting the zl1 or are you holding out for a potential z28.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by nasa.zl1

The Pill, are getting the zl1 or are you holding out for a potential z28.

Good question, as long as I have been a member of this site, nobody has ever asked me that. The real life answer is neither bud, I'm on the other side, see my signature pic of the Black 5.0 (Ernie). If I was in the market for a Camaro I would have to sit back and really consider what particular kind of racing I was going to do with the car. I had purchased my 5.0 with the intentions on tracking the car over here in Germany, although I still might play around some, my current physical condition would make it difficult to road race for an extended period of time. I will still run Hockenheim and Nurburgring for the hell of it but I will not build the car for road racing or autocross. I would love to see the Z28 come to production to meet the Boss 302 head on in Grand Am because I am still a huge fan of road racing. I did some road racing about 13-14 years ago and attempted to run again before I came into the military but a few technicalities put me out. I will always lean to the race ready aspect of any production car and cars like the hopefully upcoming Z28 would be something that I would be interested in BIG TIME.

The Z28 will hopefully eliminate some of the gadgets that today's automobile enthusiast deem necessary to complete any car.. such as NAV, Onstar, leather/heated/power seats, telescopic steering wheel ect ect.. That is the main attraction for me in the Z28, it cuts out the BS and is ready for duty and the price should be very right. In my condition though, I have elected to return to drag racing as I had more experience in this since I was younger. Drag racing means power, lots of power.. and only one Camaro that I know of has lots of that.. and that is the ZL1. The ZL1 looks like it will have far too many gadgets for me though. Those gadgets contribute to the single most thing that turns me off in that particular car but there is nothing I can do about that. The ZL1 is the total package, the Z28 would be the total opposite and that would put me in a buyers dilemma. Power and options at a high dollar amount or endurance and track ability at a reasonable cost.

I would want to drag race, but the ZL1 just comes with too many extras for that... and the Z28 will likely be the crowning achievement of the 5th Gen Camaro.. it would be hard to modify the track star design that will soon be coming from Team Camaro. When it all is said and done, I would take the $10k I save from buying the base SS instead of the Z28 and buy and build the the SS to my exact specifications for drag racing. I would go directly for a left over, bottom of the barrel 2010 Camaro 2SS hopefully with rebates. I looked at a black 2010 2SS in 2009 and didn't bite, there were some things I didn't like about the way the car looked initially, the interior made me feel sunk in like the my 3rd Gens (3 Camaros and 2 plum purple Firebirds.. don't ask) and even the '97 vert I had. They all sat low and back and the hoods always seemed bigger than they actually were. I was very close to buying one but the more time I spent around the car, the novelty wore off and I started nit picking, the car was $41k if I remember correctly. I seen another one in Japan and they were almost twice as much as the one in Hawaii. Close buy no cigar....................

Edit: Whoa, that was waaay too long, sorry man..

[2013Boss302]

Originally Posted by thePill

I'm not sure why Ford put a limit on it. Ford usually keeps initial production numbers of special models quiet which leads me to believe that only the Laguna Seca is capped. I need to look into this a little bit more but, the only official word Ford released on production was that "Every dealer was ensured to receive at least one Boss 302 (there are almost 4000 dealers in the US and Canada), only the top selling dealers would receive a chip for a second Boss 302 (or more) based on their previous Mustang sales. I have seen some dealers being allocated eight (8) Boss 302's such as the one in Dallas. Ford said they planned on building 4000 Boss 302s (just looked it up) as this number is not firm. I would say that if the initial 4000 are spoken for, Job 2 will be rolling out before summer.

A few corrections.

All Boss 302's for 2012 are allocated. They are spread out over 4 quarters. Volume dealers who sell alot of Mustangs are guaranteed allocation based on sales. Smaller dealers (read rural dealerships, of which there are alot) enter a lottery system to "win" allocation.

For instance, my local Ford store won allocation for a 2nd quarter Boss 302. Their other rural store won allocation for a 4th quarter Laguna Seca. I helped them sell their Laguna Seca, so I will be ordering a 2013 Boss 302 at under MSRP.

What we know about the 2013 Boss 302, so far is, 1970 style stripes and the addition of a few colors, along with the loss of a few colors. I will be ordering a Grabber Blue 2013.

As for a Z/28 based on the existing Gen 5. Yes, owners can easily remove weight from their cars. Manufacturers cannot do so, easily. They have warranties they have to deal with. They have pricepoints they have to meet. They have profitability targets that have to happen. You start doing too much to the car, you make too many unique pieces, you drive up the cost of the car.

I think the most you could see coming off of the SS, for a Z/28, would be 100lbs. Add weight back in, for additional suspension to create this track car, and do so reliably. Thus, you would see the actual weight for the car being very close to that of the standard SS. Look no further, than the Boss to see how this works. This is a limitation born to the fact that the car is built on a large sedan platform.

You want to raise the power a bunch?? Expect the car to gain weight accordingly. You are dealing with a 6.2L V8. It has alot more torque, down low, than the high revving 5.0 in the Ford. A strong hit of torque, off idle, is alot harder on drivetrain components, than high rpm horsepower. While the 6.2L revs decently for a large pushrod engine, by basic design, it does not lend itself well to very high rpm power.

Basically, it is just very hard for GM to turn the Camaro into the Z/28 you all want, without making it a price none of you will pay.

Oh, as to why Ford is limiting Boss302 production, I have no idea. However, I believe they truly are paying homage to the original here. They waited a long time to do this, until they had a worthy engine. All development was done in a small "skunk works" type of way (Ford is actually very good at this low production, profitable niche products), by major enthusiasts. This isn't to say that there won't be another Boss sometime in the future. However, I truly think that Ford will wait until they feel they have something different, and worthy, to do it again.

What I worry about it, by the time the Z/28 gets out here............. the Boss will be gone.

BTW, Hi guys. Gloria here.

[Blizzard]

Originally Posted by thePill

It is a nice start, they have to watch the weight though. The suspension is usually the first place weight gain occurs in road racing cars. Even light weight components still settle even as the suspension is the last place you want to truly shed weight. GM said:
The front and rear dampers shouldn't see a weight gain. The stabilizer bars WILL be very heavy compared to the current SS and the 20 inch wheels, who knows, this is usually where we would need to regain our weight loss back after we add heavy suspension components. I'm afraid that all the FE4 package will do for the SS is add weight but attempt to eliminate body roll. This is what the Z28 will need no doubt, but weight loss will come from the rest of the car first. The repositioning of the shock mounts are a very good move, geometry experiments won't result in any weight gain (Edit: The shock mounts will not be moved outward, the rear stabilizer bar is repositioned outboard of the shock mounts. Sorry for that) . I will pull up an SS rear suspension layout and take a look.

The added weight is a concern but the idea of that package shows GM is looking at the road course side of things and means a Z28 is for sure being talked about heavily inside Team Camaro.

I am also with on the fact that it would be nice for Team Camaro to drop in every once and awhile to keep our ideas on the car realistic, we know they cant confirm the car and understand that but they could give us more insight into the thought process of engineering a factory average Joe track car.