Multiple steering pump failures - Need help! - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

TinyToasta · 09-03-2014, 05:35 AM

Recently I had the 3rd (THIRD!) steering pump failing upon me - the last pump only made it for 2 weeks and I'm getting more and more frustrated as I can not exactly pinpoint reasons nor find alternatives to improving things....

What happened?

First time around the pump failed directly after a 1/4 mile pass. The steering wheel started shaking violently. It shook so bad it was almost impossible to hold the steering wheel straight and the car felt like it was tearing the front apart. After a couple of minutes the issue disappeared and I was able to continue driving. For 700 miles nothing happened until the pump went out completely and needed replacing....

2nd time around the pump failed the day after a weekend on the drag strip.
Same symptoms as for the first time, but it happened on a very bumpy road - although I don't think the road conditions had anything to do with it.... I again was able to baby the car back home (600miles) and get the pump replaced.

3rd time around was - once again - after a week at the races. Same symptoms, pump failed out of the blue. Only 2 weeks after I had it replaced....

My setup:
Forged LSA, TVS2300 (@15psi), 6% OD crank pulley, IW 8-rib drive, Rev.-Limit @ 7000rpm

I suspect that with 7000rpm and a 6% overdriven crank pulley the pump is under quite heavy load and runs 1000rpm above its usual speed when hitting the limiter causing the failures...

I have not seen any threads on here that describe the same sort of issues although there are cars out there that seem to run similar setups...

Does anybody have an idea what could be the reason for the pump failing that often, and
does anybody have similar issues?

What can be done? Are there any aftermarket pumps out there that will perform better? Anything else that could be done?

I have seen that LPE offers 2 different HD pumps for the camaro - but I'm not sure that these will cure the problem, as they only use better bearings for the pump....

Thanks guys for chiming in!

lexlueger · 09-03-2014, 05:43 AM

Switch to the LPE HD pump and be done with it. Stock pump wasn't designed (non roller bearings) for supercharged applications.

Synner · 09-03-2014, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexlueger

Switch to the LPE HD pump and be done with it. Stock pump wasn't designed (non roller bearings) for supercharged applications.

+1 LPE or Turn One both have units with bearings.

TinyToasta · 09-03-2014, 12:12 PM

Thanks for your replies guys

Do you think the LPE pump with its roller bearings is capable of handling the additional 1000+ rpms over a stock engine?

Or in other words: would you think that the failures I've been seing are due to the weak bearing the stock pump comes along with? I'm just concerned that the internals of the pump can not cope with the higher speed even with an improved bearing design....

Synner · 09-03-2014, 01:52 PM

Most of the failures at high rpm/load are due to the lateral loading on the shaft and the torsional stress it creates; the bearing address that. The turn one unit also operates at a lower ratio and therefore doesn't spin as fast or generate as much heat. Steering will be a touch heavier but with better "feel".

TinyToasta · 09-03-2014, 02:03 PM

We're curently checking the steering pump/rack for any leakages/aeration... although nothing was/is really visible....

Does the TurnOne unit come with an 8-rib Pulley?
I do like the fact that it does spin a bit slower given the fact that my serpentine belt runs at significant higher speeds....

Mean Green Z28 · 09-03-2014, 02:11 PM

what exactly fails? Is it the bearings? Could it be that there is somehow air ingestion during high RPM jaunts that causes cavitation?

Synner · 09-03-2014, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinyToasta

We're curently checking the steering pump/rack for any leakages/aeration... although nothing was/is really visible....

Does the TurnOne unit come with an 8-rib Pulley?
I do like the fact that it does spin a bit slower given the fact that my serpentine belt runs at significant higher speeds....

You buy the pulley you want.

Synner · 09-03-2014, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mean Green Z28

what exactly fails? Is it the bearings? Could it be that there is somehow air ingestion during high RPM jaunts that causes cavitation?

The stock one has NO bearing whatsoever which is why they like to fail.

TinyToasta · 09-03-2014, 02:27 PM

Unfortunately I can not answer this question yet... we will have to take the pump apart to find out.

Fact is: After the steering started to shake violently things improved again, at least in a way I was able to drive again. Only once (1st time) the pump eventually died 700mls later after grinding noises

Second time it happened the pump just got replaced without further investigation, due to the fact I needed the car back on the road quickly.

Now with the 3rd time I start to wonder if aeration or some sort of leakage could have caused this...

Synner · 09-03-2014, 02:31 PM

I would also suggest upgrading fluid to something better like Redline when you do your full system inspection.

TinyToasta · 09-03-2014, 02:42 PM

Will do - especially when comes to redline stuff

This Article on TurnOne's page does sound like quite a good reason for leakages... given the fact that my issues arose after multiple high rpm runs on the strip....:

Power Steering System Over-heating the Cause of Rack Leakage

Posted by Turn One on 6/19/2014 to Techical Support

Recently we have seen an increase in our customers sending in their power steering rack and pinions to be rebuilt due to seal leakage. The most common cause of rack and pinion seal leakage is a result of the power steering pump over-heating. When the pump over-heats, it causes the fluid temperatures to rise to a point where it damages the seals not only in the pump, but in the rack and pinions as well. Turn One recommends the power steering fluid temperatures not exceed 275° F. This will insure a long rack and pinion seal life.

Mean Green Z28 · 09-03-2014, 02:53 PM

the reason I asked about air ingestion is due to my experience with our Subaru. The o-ring on the inlet goes bad over time and the pump sucks in air and you can feel the jittery steering due to the aeration of the fluid; however after the car sits for a while, you can start it up and it'll be perfect until you start driving again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synner

The stock one has NO bearing whatsoever which is why they like to fail.

well a sleeve bearing is still a bearing, lol

09-03-2014, 05:35 AM	#1
TinyToasta Drives: way too fast.... Join Date: May 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 297 View My Garage	Multiple steering pump failures - Need help! Recently I had the 3rd (THIRD!) steering pump failing upon me - the last pump only made it for 2 weeks and I'm getting more and more frustrated as I can not exactly pinpoint reasons nor find alternatives to improving things.... What happened? First time around the pump failed directly after a 1/4 mile pass. The steering wheel started shaking violently. It shook so bad it was almost impossible to hold the steering wheel straight and the car felt like it was tearing the front apart. After a couple of minutes the issue disappeared and I was able to continue driving. For 700 miles nothing happened until the pump went out completely and needed replacing.... 2nd time around the pump failed the day after a weekend on the drag strip. Same symptoms as for the first time, but it happened on a very bumpy road - although I don't think the road conditions had anything to do with it.... I again was able to baby the car back home (600miles) and get the pump replaced. 3rd time around was - once again - after a week at the races. Same symptoms, pump failed out of the blue. Only 2 weeks after I had it replaced.... My setup: Forged LSA, TVS2300 (@15psi), 6% OD crank pulley, IW 8-rib drive, Rev.-Limit @ 7000rpm I suspect that with 7000rpm and a 6% overdriven crank pulley the pump is under quite heavy load and runs 1000rpm above its usual speed when hitting the limiter causing the failures... I have not seen any threads on here that describe the same sort of issues although there are cars out there that seem to run similar setups... Does anybody have an idea what could be the reason for the pump failing that often, and does anybody have similar issues? What can be done? Are there any aftermarket pumps out there that will perform better? Anything else that could be done? I have seen that LPE offers 2 different HD pumps for the camaro - but I'm not sure that these will cure the problem, as they only use better bearings for the pump.... Thanks guys for chiming in! __________________ custom build forged LSA, 379ci, TVS2300@15psi, 696rwhp/688ft-lbs, built by DH Individual, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, ZL1 Rear End (3.73) CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials

09-03-2014, 05:43 AM	#2
lexlueger Drives: V10 BMW M5, Supercharged 2SS/RS Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Charlotte NC /Brooklyn NY Posts: 2,305	Switch to the LPE HD pump and be done with it. Stock pump wasn't designed (non roller bearings) for supercharged applications. __________________ MAST 416 STROKER: STAGE 3 TVS 2300 CUSTOM CAM TPIS 102 TB IW 8 RIB PULLEY W/ OD COG REARS NX EXPRESS/NANO KIT KDI HEAT EXCHANGER/ROTOFAB RESERVOIR CIRCLE D 2800 TC/FLEX PLATE/ADM TRANS COOLER DSS DRIVESHAFT/1400 HP AXLES EATON TRUETRAC -LPE 3.27 GEARS DYNATECH HEADERS/MAGNAFLOW EXHAUST SQUASH RETURN STYLE FS ID 850's E85/ FLEXFUEL BMR/EIBACH SUSPENSION KILL MODE, ON.

09-03-2014, 12:12 PM	#4
TinyToasta Drives: way too fast.... Join Date: May 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 297 View My Garage	Thanks for your replies guys Do you think the LPE pump with its roller bearings is capable of handling the additional 1000+ rpms over a stock engine? Or in other words: would you think that the failures I've been seing are due to the weak bearing the stock pump comes along with? I'm just concerned that the internals of the pump can not cope with the higher speed even with an improved bearing design.... __________________ custom build forged LSA, 379ci, TVS2300@15psi, 696rwhp/688ft-lbs, built by DH Individual, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, ZL1 Rear End (3.73) CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials

09-03-2014, 02:03 PM	#6
TinyToasta Drives: way too fast.... Join Date: May 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 297 View My Garage	We're curently checking the steering pump/rack for any leakages/aeration... although nothing was/is really visible.... Does the TurnOne unit come with an 8-rib Pulley? I do like the fact that it does spin a bit slower given the fact that my serpentine belt runs at significant higher speeds.... __________________ custom build forged LSA, 379ci, TVS2300@15psi, 696rwhp/688ft-lbs, built by DH Individual, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, ZL1 Rear End (3.73) CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials

09-03-2014, 02:11 PM	#7
Mean Green Z28 Drives: 2010 2SS Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Annapolis, MD Posts: 941 View My Garage	what exactly fails? Is it the bearings? Could it be that there is somehow air ingestion during high RPM jaunts that causes cavitation? __________________ 2010 2SS - CAI Intake, ADM Scoop, RotoFab Washer relo. LT Headers and off-road pipes, X-pipe, Muffler Deletes, ZL1 Spoiler, Technostalgia Tail-lights '98 T/A (Sold) - Forged 6.0ltr, MS3, P&P'd Heads/Valves, 90MM FAST/TB, Headers, 3" Y-pipe, 4" Mufflex Catback. Koni Adjustables w/GC coilovers (550/175), Strano Sway Bars '94 Z28 (Sold) ... LS1 swap (basically same setup as the T/A), TH350/3500 stall ... swapped it all into the T/A -- >> Some of my Projects My Fquick Page

09-03-2014, 01:52 PM	#5
Synner Drives: cars Join Date: May 2011 Location: Oversneeze Posts: 4,544	Most of the failures at high rpm/load are due to the lateral loading on the shaft and the torsional stress it creates; the bearing address that. The turn one unit also operates at a lower ratio and therefore doesn't spin as fast or generate as much heat. Steering will be a touch heavier but with better "feel".

09-03-2014, 02:27 PM	#10
TinyToasta Drives: way too fast.... Join Date: May 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 297 View My Garage	Unfortunately I can not answer this question yet... we will have to take the pump apart to find out. Fact is: After the steering started to shake violently things improved again, at least in a way I was able to drive again. Only once (1st time) the pump eventually died 700mls later after grinding noises Second time it happened the pump just got replaced without further investigation, due to the fact I needed the car back on the road quickly. Now with the 3rd time I start to wonder if aeration or some sort of leakage could have caused this... __________________ custom build forged LSA, 379ci, TVS2300@15psi, 696rwhp/688ft-lbs, built by DH Individual, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, ZL1 Rear End (3.73) CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials

09-03-2014, 02:31 PM	#11
Synner Drives: cars Join Date: May 2011 Location: Oversneeze Posts: 4,544	I would also suggest upgrading fluid to something better like Redline when you do your full system inspection.

09-03-2014, 02:42 PM	#12
TinyToasta Drives: way too fast.... Join Date: May 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 297 View My Garage	Will do - especially when comes to redline stuff This Article on TurnOne's page does sound like quite a good reason for leakages... given the fact that my issues arose after multiple high rpm runs on the strip....: Power Steering System Over-heating the Cause of Rack Leakage Posted by Turn One on 6/19/2014 to Techical Support Recently we have seen an increase in our customers sending in their power steering rack and pinions to be rebuilt due to seal leakage. The most common cause of rack and pinion seal leakage is a result of the power steering pump over-heating. When the pump over-heats, it causes the fluid temperatures to rise to a point where it damages the seals not only in the pump, but in the rack and pinions as well. Turn One recommends the power steering fluid temperatures not exceed 275° F. This will insure a long rack and pinion seal life. __________________ custom build forged LSA, 379ci, TVS2300@15psi, 696rwhp/688ft-lbs, built by DH Individual, Customkingz, tuned by Jannetty Racing JRE rough idle cam, JRE ported lower intake manifold, OD cog drive, 6% OD crank pulley, ported ls3 heads, NW102mm TB, 1/2'' RDS spacer, IW 8-rib drive Pfadt Cradle Bushings, Arms & Rods, Pedders Supercar w/FE4 conversion, ZL1 sways, HE Twin Carbon Street Slayer, ZL1 Rear End (3.73) CTS-V Brake upgrade, Street: 22'' Vossen CV1, Strip: 18'' Forgestar F14 on MT Street Radials