SS sway bars on v6?

[jatt5ab1soorma]

the title itself is very self explanatory but ill describe, well more like looking for getting answers. Im looking towards installing SS Swaybars on a V6, im wondering that would the difference be good enough ? i dont have that much money to buy both the kit for an expensive front and rear kit (eg-Hotchkis, BMR) If i would buy i would only buy the rear swaybar....so my question is which is the best way to -getting the SS sway bars on a v6 or just a rear swaybar?

Thankss..

[JusticePete]

What is your goal for the sway bar swap?

[jatt5ab1soorma]

and i might install the stock SS springs on a v6? so overall which would make a difference more...if i install the whole SS suspension kit or jsut a rear BMR swaybar?

[jatt5ab1soorma]

well my goal is to get much better handling on corners and a little less body roll.....

[JusticePete]

A rear bar will change the sway bar bias from understeer to oversteer. On the 5th Gen we suggest a different approach. The low hanging fruit on the 5th Gen is found in the sub-frame and radius bushes. Both are deeply voided to control Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). The by product of the library quiet cabin goal is that the rear end likes to step out, to steer itself as the sub-frame twists in the sub-frame bushes. That makes the #1 handling modification sub-frame bush inserts or full replacement of the sub-frame bushes. Adding sway bars or any other suspension modification before addressing the foundation is akin to trying to build a house before the cement in the foundation is set.

The radius bush is a hydraulically damped side loading bush. The compliance built into the radius bush allows for more dynamic caster change that we like. The slightly soft on center feel of the steering is improved by changing out the OE rubber inserts with urethane or with full bush replacement.

Both of these are what we at Pedders refer to as the foundational components, the building blocks of 5th Gen suspension upgrades. There are two new threads with excellent commentary from Camaro5 members I think will be of interest to you.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156892

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157142

If you have the time reading the the Book on 5th gen Suspension will be worth while.

[jatt5ab1soorma]

hmmm, but the question is how much of a difference would i notice just with the bushings in handling and all that...and is there a link you can provide for the product to buy?

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by jatt5ab1soorma

the title itself is very self explanatory but ill describe, well more like looking for getting answers. Im looking towards installing SS Swaybars on a V6, im wondering that would the difference be good enough ? i dont have that much money to buy both the kit for an expensive front and rear kit (eg-Hotchkis, BMR) If i would buy i would only buy the rear swaybar....so my question is which is the best way to -getting the SS sway bars on a v6 or just a rear swaybar?

Thankss..

jatt5ab1soorma, We have done the development on various sway bar packages to show you exactly what you are looking for with actual data. Take a look at the below charts that compare the relative roll stiffness of the Stock V6, Stock V8, and our sway bars. Adding a rear sway bar does not mean that you will all of the sudden have oversteer in your car. That claim isn't factual.




Now you will notice the Front AND Rear sway bars on the V6 and V8 (FE2 and FE3) are VERY similar to each other. Upgrading to those V8 swaybars would make a slight difference yes. BUT, the addition of SS bars would not necessarily be a handling upgrade, as all it would do is reduce sway a slight bit.

The first thing that is necessary to do on this car to change the balance and get it handling like a dream is to change the sway bar balance. This is because it is hands-down the best bang for the buck mod that you can do. How do you do this? Again, I will refer to the charts. You want to get the relative stiffness of the front and rear of the car close to get a neutral balance. What this means is that the front will want to roll at the same relative rate and promote a predictable, precise, controllable neutral balance during a turn. No other parts are needed if this is your main goal.

Back to your question, YES, you can make a huge difference in the handling by upgrading the rear bar only as shown in the charts. The Pfadt Balance Bar is engineered to match your OEM Camaro V6 front bar, which will provide a large difference in the handling of your Camaro with out breaking the bank.

After that, there are other areas that can be addressed but as we show in the charts, it is ways to get a handling upgrade by doing one sole rear sway bar change.

[jatt5ab1soorma]

lol its just too much to understand, i really do appreciate, i got mostly somewhat of it...if you can provide me the link on what to buy ....in my case you are saying the sway bars would be good enough right?

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by jatt5ab1soorma

lol its just too much to understand, i really do appreciate, i got mostly somewhat of it...if you can provide me the link on what to buy ....in my case you are saying the sway bars would be good enough right?

PM sent, we are here to help!

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by jatt5ab1soorma

hmmm, but the question is how much of a difference would i notice just with the bushings in handling and all that...and is there a link you can provide for the product to buy?

Check the other links to see what 5th Gen owners have to say, but yes you will notice a substantial difference. The front and rear inserts are what we call a Street I Package and available through the Buy Pedders link in my signature or through our Pedders Dealers.

Keep in mind that Pedders has a full range of suspension bits for the 5th Gen from bushes to sway bars to coils to coilovers. When a potential customer makes a post indicating they want sway bars the path of least resistance is to post pictures and links to sway bars. That doesn't mean the OP would be best served with sway bars. Sway bars are the final tuning element in suspension setup and not the first step. We can dazzle you with data too.

INTRODUCTION

This paper is a condensed version of a Pedders training seminar. It was designed to give everyone a greater understanding on sway bars and why Pedders uses the 3 Solution Packages that we offer. It also was intended to at least partially explain the testing and R&D that Pedders does, when introducing a new product. Understanding how Pedders does their checking, we then tried to relate this to other manufacturers, which is challenging because sway bars are all over the map. This is accomplished by making specific comparisons from one brand to another, and charting all of them together in a common format for instant comparison. The purpose of this format is not to prove Pedders has a better setup, but is designed to compare Pedders with other setups, and let you make the decisions yourself. With basic calculations that will be given, you can do your own math and your own comparison. Also, the paper is designed to explain the 6 most common factors that determine overall strength, and the individual influences they offer.

Sway Bars! What Are They Good For??

Everyone recognizes the benefits of sway bars, but that is where the knowledge and understanding stops for the majority of the auto enthusiasts. There is a lot of misinformation out there , including unsubstantiated improvement gains, which leads to a lot of incorrect assumptions. Therefore, sway bars are the most misunderstood suspension component on your vehicle. This educational document will hopefully help you better understand sway bars, with the hope you can gain the knowledge in determning the best sway bar for your driving needs.

Why the need for knowledge on sway bars? The answer comes from another question:
Why do People choose a particular sway bar brand?
1. Word of mouth
2. Forum posts
3. Reputation of manufacturer
4. Marketing by the manufacturer
5. Price
6. Size of bar
7. Hollow bar to remove weight
8. Color

It is rare that bar selection is actually made based on or using hard data and comparison.
Total Bar strength is primarily determined by 6 influences:
1. Hollow versus Solid (more on this later)
2. Bar thickness, the thicker the stronger
3. Bar length from bend to bend; shorter the better
4. Swing Arm length and angle; shorter & great angle are stronger
5. Bar material; high carbon steel required
6. Attachment methods; Geometry and rigidity

HOLLOW VERSUS SOLID

There is a SERIOUS amount of misunderstanding on this topic. To start, we need to understand a few engineering terms and define them as they relate to sway bars, in a simplistic manner:

SHEAR STRESS: Stress that is applied in a rotational method with respect to sway bars. The lower the number with a given load the stronger the sway bar will be. The formula for Shear Stress is:

Shear Stress (r)=torque (T) X Radius (R)/Polar Inertia (Ip)

POLAR MOMENT OF INERTIA: the ability of a sway bar to resist torque and while maintaining its original shape. The higher the number the better
The formula for Polar Inertia is:

Polar Inertia (Ip) = (Pi) X (OD^4 – ID^4)/32

OD equals outer diameter of the sway bar. ID equals inner diameter of the bar. To find the ID, subtract 2X wall thickness from the OD. If we are calculating a solid bar, then drop the ID^4 part of the calculation.

Before we actually calculate data, we need to understand wall thickness and what is typical. Wall thickness of sway bars is one of those mystic numbers. They are rarely talked about or even thought of, but the thickness is critical. Most hollow bars are in the .118inch thick tube range. This is due to pricing. The cost of the hollow tube material really starts to escalate as wall thickness escalates. Other tube size may max out at the .188inch range, which is a very aggressive bar, to a animal .250 range, which is usually not seen for street use.

At .188 inch of wall thickness, the bar will be 30% stronger than a .118 inch tube
At .250 inch of wall thickness, the bar will be 45% stronger than a .118inch tube

Here is a comparison between two 27mm bars, one being solid, and the other being hollow with a .188 inch (aggressive thickness!) tube:

To analyze the above data, given two 27mm bars the Ip of the solid bar is 52,194^4 and the 27mm hollow bar is 43,089^4

The solid bar is 21.11% stronger with an aggressive wall thickness .188Inches and 57.81% stronger than an normal .118 inch thick tube bar.

There are other “issues” hollow tube bars have that solid tube bars do not:
1. The stress is highly concentrated in the .118 inch thick tube, versus the radius of a solid bar. Thus the solid bar will have, in general, a greater life. It actually works out to be 111% higher stress than a solid bar material
2. All late model vehicle sway bars are subject to major bends for clearances
a. Hollow tube bends are not consistently predictable from 1 hollow bar to another, allowing greater variations in bar strength
b. This means actual bar strengths have a higher degree of variationfrom one hollow tube bar to another, as compared to a solid sway bar.
c. Bends also decrease diameter of the tube. At SEMA, I measured 2 different well-known brands. Here is the Data:





The arrow shows the reduction in bar diameter in a hollow tube bend from a major manufacturer of hollow tube bars. Even though the picture is small, you can visually see the diameter of the bars are smaller at the bends

To further understand, take 2 empty soda cans, and partially crush one of them. Then see which one twists easier!

3. Hollow bars may weigh approximately 40% less than solids, but answer these questions:
a. Will 6 pounds of sprung weight make a big difference??
b. Will 6 pounds of sprung weight located at the lowest part of the chassis have much effect on center of gravity??
c. How much weight did you add when you did your wheels and tire upgrades??
d. Unless you are building a all out race car, hollow bars offer little weight advantage to the big picture

SWAY BAR THICKNESS

Changing the thickness of our sway bars to improve performance is the largest influence on strength enhancement that we can do. For example, if you could double the thickness of a sway bar, you would increase the strength 1600%. Changing the thickness of a solid sway bar 1mm, will make a 19% to 22% improvement in strength. A hollow bar will have to be 2 to 4mm larger diameter to be equal in strength to a solid bar.

Here is a Strength Comparison Chart to demonstrate this:

There are limitations to diameters of bars due to clearance issues as a result of OE design and structure. But the bar diameter is the #1 change we have to make strength improvements.

BAR LENGTH

The strength of a bar is inversely proportional to the length of the bar. Bar length is measured from bend to bend at the frame rails, . Therefore, the shorter the bar the stronger it is. For example, if you reduce the bar length by .5 inches, the strength of the bar increases approximately 1.2%, based on a average bar lengths for Camaro, GTO, G8, Mustang, Challenger, etc..
However, bar length offers very little opportunities for changing due to the clearance issues and OE construction and layout restrictions.

SWING ARM LENGTH AND ANGLE

Sway bars are a horizontal torsion bar with swing arms applying leverage to the bar length ends. The shorter the length, the stronger the bar will be. For example, on average, changing the length of the swing arm .5 inches (13mm) , will change the strength of the bar approximately 2% to 5%.
The angle of the swing arm from the bar length also influences strength. For example, given a 16.5 inch long swing arm (C) when the length of the swing arms perpendicular to the bar length (A), will change 5% for every .5 inch change in perpendicular length. Using the picture below we are using the difference between C and A/ When the length (A) reduces compared to (C), strength will increase

Angles and lengths of the swing arms offer limited performance enhancement opportunities due to OE chassis design.

BAR MATERIAL

All sway bars, except for some serious special application race cars, are made of high carbon, hardened steel like 1080, 1095, 4130-4140, 4340, 5160 and chromoly. Turns out for actual strength, there is little difference between grades. But the quality and preparation of the metal are very important for long term durability and reliability. Hollow tube sway bar materials have to be a much higher quality than the materials used for solid bars to equal the durability of a solid bar. Remember, hollow bars experience much higher stresses than solid bars. But the quality of the metal is insignificant in determining strength.

ATTACHMENT METHODS

Nearly all sway bars are attached to the chassis through mounting bushings and end links. Firmer poly mount bushings add efficiency to sway bars as compared to soft rubber bushings. The improvement can be substantial! Double ball jointed end links are becoming much more popular than units using mounting bushings. In most cases, using double ball jointed end links help the sway bar improve its overall efficiency as compared to end links using OE soft rubber bushings. Also, traditionally the double ball jointed end links are more durable than OE rubber.
The location of the end-link attachment to the suspension in relationship to the knuckle is a serious influence to the efficiency of the bar. Case in point; the mounting positions for the rear sway bar end links on the 2010 Camaro are mounted 180mm from the inner control arm bushing (inner pivot). The outer control arm bushing (outer pivot) is 510mm from the inner control arm bushing (inner pivot). When the tire moves 25.4mm, the sway bar will only move 9mm. Therefore, the sway bar is only operating at 35% of its capability.

OE End link mountings and geometry offer only a small amount of sway bar improvements. Moving the end link .5 inches closer to the bar length will increase strength between 2 and 5%. However, when you are looking at adjustable sway bars front and rear with 3 adjustment positions each as the Pedders bars have, the overall changes can add up to quite a bit of bias adjustment.

Adjustable length end links are required for corner balancing. Corner balancing is the process of shifting weight front to rear, side to side and diagonally. This involves raising and lowering ride heights at the different corners, or shifting weight, or adding weight in some cases . It is entirely possible to have the left front corner sitting 10mm or more higher than the right front corner. Without adjustable end links, you will preload the sway bar, thus altering spring rates, which is not what you normally want.


Pedders includes adjustable High Effciency end links with all sway bar kits for the front and rear of the 2010 Camaro.

CAMARO SWAY BAR COMPARISONS

There are multiple choices that you have for selecting sway bars. It is important to understand the differences and benefits. It is surprising the differences between the manufacturing companies. The differences are so substantial, it appears that some may have a conservative figure of X% increase over stock OE and ship them, while not truly taking into account any specific handling concerns that a particular platform may have. Pedders evaluated over a dozen different bar combinations. Below we will do a review of the Pedders Camaro Systems, OE systems, and other aftermarket systems that have been collected data on. First, here is a breakdown of our 3 Pedders systems:

SOLUTION A: This entry level option offers a 27mm 3 way adjustable solid front sway bar, including 12mm HD adjustable end links. Solution A is designed to seriously attack front body roll, which is the number 1 improvement needed for the non-competitive , but sport enthusiast Camaro driver. When pushed past the 7/10 (Absolute Ability) level, understeer will be increased. Understeer is excessive in the Camaro, but body roll is really excessive and undesired, and the enthusiast requires its reduction. This package is 90% STRONGER than OE, and is designed for the budget oriented enthusiast that likes more control driving thru the twisties.

SOLUTION B: This will be our most popular sway bar kit and we feel it is the best sway bar package on the market. Solution B offers 27mm solid 3 way adjustable front and rear bars with 4 adjustable HD 12mm end links. The Solution B package is for aggressive street driving and non professional track use, and will significantly reduce body roll and understeer. Solution B is 90% front and 133% rear stronger than OE. It also increases the rear sway bar bias to the rear by 23%. This is specifically designed to improve understeer.

SOLUTION C: This package is designed for the SERIOUSLY aggressive driver who has SCCA or NASA training. Solution C offers a 27mm front and 32mm rear, 3 way adjustable solid sway bars with 3 adjustable HD end links. Solution C is 90% front and 360% rear stronger than OE, and will increase the rear sway bar bias to the rear by 142% to give the very aggressive, trained driver, the ability to induce a controlled understeer to oversteer modes. It is only recommended having Solution C installed on one of our major systems. If you have questions about this, you can call us.

Before making some comparative review, lets discuss the bias ratio referred to above. If you look at the strengths of a front and rear bars as a relationship, you can determine a bias. For example, the OE Camaro bar has a bias of .815. Increasing the ratio number will move the Camaro closer to a potential oversteer concern if you go too high. But a higher ratio is seriously needed for the Camaro. It is the R&D that determines just how high to go and driving habits, setup of the Camaro, etc. The lower the number, the more understeer the Camaro will have. Now this ratio will be influenced by many factors from wheel base, to track, tires. the degree of suspension upgrades, the skills of the driver, and very important, the velocity and inertia of the car that is speed dependent. The faster you are going, the more influence you will have, These ratios may not apply the same to other vehicles. Also, we feel once over a ratio of 2.000, this could potentially present unsafe oversteer if not correctly set up.

Most of the Competitors' bars are hollow, and the tube thickness is an approximation. When looking at the prices keep in mind the Pedders bars include adjustable HD end links and the other manufacturers do not. The prices listed are estimates and subject to change at any time.

There is a lot of data here! Strength measured is a function of polar inertia. To make selections of bars requires looking at ratio, strength, and adjustability. For example,

1. Competitor A offers a VERY low ratio, considering they are replacing 2 sway bars, compared to Pedders Solution B ratio of 1.000 and a 90%/133% increase, compared to their 106% / 20% improvement. No end links are included with their kit

2. Competitor B is a good ratio, but offers much lower strength gains than the Pedders Solution B Package. No endlinks are included with their kit.

3. Competitor C offers a too high of a ratio, and too low of an increase in the front. This will reduce understeer , but will offer insufficient improvements in body roll. No endlinks are included with their kit

4. Competitor D offers a 2 sway bar kit with very good control in body role, but will increase understeer as compared to OE and Pedders Solution B. No endlinks are included with their kit. The Competitor D has a low ratio of .553 while the Pedders Solution B has an improved ratio of 1.00. The Pedders % improvement is 90%/133%, while the Competitor D offers a 111%/44%. Pedders again offers a better all around balance

5. Competitor E was found at SEMA but had their bars on their Camaro, but has not listed the Camaro yet on their website. They have the same size bars as Competitor B, but has the advantage of having a 2 way adjustable front bar compared to Competitor B. As in Competitor B, the balance is better than OE, but the front and rear strengths are seriously lower than Pedders Solution B at 53/87% increase over OE compared to Pedders 90/133% increase over OE

I hope this helps everyone see the value in comparative data and understand why Pedders Solution B is the best combination for street use compared to all others. There is a lot more data that can be shared, but may only potentially just make the processes more confusing. We are available for any questions. If the Bar manufacturers think they are included in the competitor selections and they want to give me their wall thicknesses, I will be glad to be 100% accurate, instead of the 90% to 95% accurate, and would be glad to change the numbers. But no one wants to give this data out. We asked every competitor except 1, and they either did not know the wall thickness, or do not want to give it out for proprietary reasons, which is understandable.

In conclusion, there are many factors that manufactures that determine overall bar strength, but the only significant one is bar diameter and wall thickness, due to fitment mandates established by OE chassis design. Comparative data is more important than actual final strengths, since shapes and length variations of sway bar components cannot be changed by much. I have the calculation process to determine actual strength of a bar, which can be used to make changes in dimensions and see how actual overall strength is affected. But it gets a little complicated to present on a forum and still keep it functionally accurate. Will work on this.
I tried to get the wall thickness of all the hollow bar manufacturers, to get to 100% accuracy. But again, that data is not given out. In most cases, I think I overstated the wall thickness in my calculations to be more than fair to the other brands.

Pedders Discussion and analysis of the 2010 Camaro:

The bottom line is the foundation for all 5th Gen suspension modifications starts with addressing the weakest links in the archeteture. The weakest links are the subframe and radius rod bushes. The most cost effective solution to that is Pedders sub-frame inserts EP1200 and radius inserts EP6578. Both are available through all our dealers and at Shop Pedders in my signature. Don't take my word for it. Listen to your fellow 5th Gen ownerss that followed our advice ands started building thier 5th Gen suspension at the foundational level. It isn't about sexy. It is all about function.